Webster mk4-6 gearbox questions

[tumba]

Hi!
I recently got what I believe is 4 speed webster mk4 gear cluster.
Before I put it in my car/gearbox I'd like to convert it into a 5 speed.

While looking into this I noticed that all four gears were 9/16” thick.
When I remove the 1st gear blank spacer and reposition my 1st and 2nd gear on the pinion shaft, that gear pair seems to be 0,125” too wide (2x0,0625”).

So the question is: Do I need to change to 1/2” wide mk9 gears on 1st-2nd or all gears in order to have a working 5 speed gearbox, or is there a different 1st/reverse hub that I should buy?

Are the 9/16” wide gears of an older design that only can handle < 180hp?

Thanks in advance!

[rv greg]

The MK 4 is only good for 130 hp if it has the VW ring and pinion. They also do not like standing starts. I converted my MK 4 to a MK 5 5 speed by changing the ring and pinion and layshaft. You will need to replace 1st and reverse gear and hub. http://www.taylor-race.com/framedmap...y1=MK%20Series

[Brian]

I know that a Webster Mk4 with the VW R&P can have five speeds, because I put a new ultra-low ratio Hewland first gear in one a couple of years ago. I went through Taylor to source the gear. On a Webster/Hewland the four change gears become 2 through 5 of a five speed, but you probably knew that. First gear is part of the reverse gear slider. you will need a new layshaft as well, usually first gear is ground onto the shaft. You often really can't use first gear for much, it's kind of hard to shift into and you need to work on the reverse lockout spring to loosen it up. It's good for standing starts, though.

Brian

[tumba]

Any ideas about the 9/16" wide gears
Are they only used for special 4 speed applications?

As I wrote earlier, the 1st and 2nd gear pair on the pinion seems to be 0,125” too wide (2x0,0625”). This cases the 2-3 hub not to slide down properly into it's correct position.
In other words the 1-2 gears have no play between the 1/r-hub and 2/3-hub and therefore do not rotate freely.


I believe that I have the correct reverse slider as seen in the picture


The layshaft is a 1" diamter layshaft with all slide on gears.


The reverse driver on the layshaft needs to be changed to a 5 spee since the one I have didn't have a spacer.

The current gearing of the fours gear pairs I have are ok as 1-4th gear.
I would therefore initially like to buy only a 5th gear if it'd possible.

[Brian]

You may have a five speed cluster there, if I am seeing things right. There is a spacer on the right hand side of the pinion gear stack that is where fifth gear is supposed to be. Take that spacer off, put a gear on there, and the dog ring should be able to engage it. There may be a spacer on the shift rod to block the shift finger from moving the dog ring to allow that gear to be engaged. A normal "formula ford" hewland has, moving from the pinion out, reverse gear, blank spot, first gear, dog ring, second gear, third gear, dog ring, fourth gear. A normal hewland five speed has reverse gear, first gear that is engaged to dogs on reverse gear, second gear, dog ring, third gear, fourth gear, dog ring, fifth gear. You are missing fifth gear and you have that spacer instead. One tip - you set the fifth gear float spacing (should be .008" or so) by shimming the gear stack at the pinion end. You measure it on a jig, or if you don't have a jig you assemble the box with the pinion shaft left out and stick your finger in through the pinion shaft bearing and wiggle the fifth gear back and forth, and guess at the clearance. A "little bit" is good, too much and the dog cannot engage the gear properly.

Edit - if you don't mind me saying so, that is weird. You never had that cluster in a car, did you? It would have a dog-leg first shift pattern, first would be behind reverse.

Edit again: All of my gears are .550" thick. I just went out and measured the bearing space on my only five speed R/1 hub, and it is 1.447" (where the gears run on their needle bearings. The gears measured over the dogs are .718 thick, so there is basically 10 thou. float between the pair of gears. I hope this helps you figure it out.

Brian

[HayesCages]

We have an early Webster 5 spd. as well. I'll take it apart and post some photos. I've used the mk. 8/9 gears in it and assembled with no issues. It uses the VW R/P too.
1st was used as a standing start gear as mentioned above as it is too low a ratio to be used after that. I think it is a 13/39 if memory serves...

Lawrence

[Brian]

I gave up trying to remember and went to my go-to place for MK info - Taylor Race Engineering. Here is the page you want: http://www.taylor-race.com/framedmap...y1=MK%20Series

As my memory was trying to tell me, there are two R/1 hubs available, one for a 1/2" wide first gear and one for a 9/16" side first gear. So you need to either buy a new hub or buy a new first gear. I have a good hub and reverse gear for a 9/16" wide gear, per my earlier post, that I could part with. I hate five speed MK boxes after my Mk 5 hung up and engaged two gears at once.

Brian

[TimH]

I hate five speed MK boxes after my Mk 5 hung up and engaged two gears at once.Brian

Was there anything left?

[Brian]

Posted too soon, actual post is below...
Brian

[Brian]

Enough to build a 4 speed! First gear had three bent teeth, so I tossed it and put it back together with a spare 4 speed hub. When you put a gear with bent teeth in and fire it up, it sounds like a large jackhammer is inside the box and you think it is going to explode...

The problem turned out to be an issue with the first gear/reverse shift fork. It was a very early one and put reverse gear too close to first. It would look fine out of the box, but you could actually shift out of first and the reverse gear would be left close enough to catch the first gear dogs and suck itself in. That shift fork is not shimmable, it is located by a pinch bolt. I was too cheap to buy a new shift fork, it worked fine for reverse, and I had a spare 4 speed hub. The decision was easy! It took a long time to figure it out, and I ended up on the phone with Scotty at TRE, measuring the offset of various shift forks. Sure enough, mine was different to all of the ones they had. No one had any idea why my shift fork was different. That box (I still have it, it is in my NTM Mk4 B/SR) was a bitsa made up of a bunch of transmission parts I got when I bought the car. The gentleman I bought it from likes to take things apart to store them... I got two and a half transmissions ( one was a six speed) in a large box.

Edit - if you are going to run it as a five speed, take the reverse gate spring right out, make a stop to locate the shift finger in the right spot for first gear, and make a reverse gear lockout at the shift lever in the cockpit like Ferrari used to have.

Brian

[tumba]

You may have a five speed cluster there, if I am seeing things right. There is a spacer on the right hand side of the pinion gear stack that is where fifth gear is supposed to be.
Brian

Edit - if you don't mind me saying so, that is weird. You never had that cluster in a car, did you? It would have a dog-leg first shift pattern, first would be behind reverse.
Brian

No it's never been in a car/gearbox
When I got the cluster the spacer was located on the 1st gear position. I just put it on the 5th gear position now when I wanted to assemble it in 5 speed config.
In 4 speed config play between gears and hubs is ok.

.. I have a good hub and reverse gear for a 9/16" wide gear, per my earlier post, that I could part with.
Brian

just to clarify: Is the R/1-hub for a vw pinion and the reverse gear for a 1" layshaft?
Send me pm with wat you want for them and postage to Sweden.

[Brian]

Edit: My hub is for a MK 8/9 pinion so it won't fit a VW. Mind you, I also have a new 9/31 HewlandMK 9 ring and pinion that has been on my shelf for eight years... but by then you are getting up to the price of a used gearbox. Sorry. Taylor can probably get you the narrow first gear you need.
Brian

[tumba]

OK!
I'll contact Taylor Race to see if they can help me out.
/Johan

[HayesCages]

Johan,
Just curious; does your box have the VW type end cover or the Hewland FF style?

Ours has the VW type and can use a stock Type 1 "nose cone" with mild modifications. tried to get Craig Taylor to ID it from the serial number and he said it was from a Formula Mazda. Hard to believe though as it has the VW ring and pinion.

Any thoughts?

[tumba]

My box does have a webster vw style end cover and 6volt vw transmission case.
Since I'm going to put it into my circuit race beetle it's going to get a vw "nose cone" aswell.

I have looked at the drawing of the formula mazda gearbox on taylors website and believe that my gearbox is from a formula mazda aswell.

The one thing that makes me confused are the 9/16" wide gears I have.
It seems like all mk5/8/9 gears are 1/2" wide

[HayesCages]

If it has the VW R&P it wouldn't be able to take the output of the Mazda engine.
The Webster serial number on ours is 345-63.

[HayesCages]

http://www.taylor-race.com/pdf/ACF14E2.pdf
If you look at the "Formula Mazda" ID picture you'll notice the rear wing mount which ours does not have.
Wondering if yours does?

I wish we could talk to someone in the know at Webster to see what the serial number(s) would match to...
Does yours have a serial number stamping as well?

[tumba]

My box was not complete when I got it.
It's also missing the rear wing mount/nose cone, and the diff side plates

where was your serial number located?

[HayesCages]

The number is located on the gear cluster carrier housing above the Webster name stamping (with the box turned FF fashion).

[HayesCages]

Thought I may as well disassemble and photograph the guts...
Driven shaft is 1" OD with 6 splines. Input shaft is stock VW. Not sure of the year though. Seems to me the R/P is a 4.12:1.
1st/reverse gear slides on output shaft. 1st gear is 13/38, so just for standing starts.
All gears used are std. Mk series which are nominally .565" or 9/16"(.560" measured).

[tumba]

The number is located on the gear cluster carrier housing above the Webster name stamping (with the box turned FF fashion).

I haven´t noticed that on my carrier but I´ll have a look when I get home in two weeks time

Thought I may as well disassemble and photograph the guts...
Driven shaft is 1" OD with 6 splines. Input shaft is stock VW. Not sure of the year though. Seems to me the R/P is a 4.12:1.
1st/reverse gear slides on output shaft. 1st gear is 13/38, so just for standing starts.
All gears used are std. Mk series which are nominally .565" or 9/16"(.560" measured).

I thought the mk5/8/9 gears were 0,5" wide, from what I have read.
It is the first time I have a Webster/hewland mk series transmission so I have no experience of them.

my box came with a 8/31 (Klingenberger) and a 9/31 R&P
the gearing is: 1st: 2.25 2nd: 1.77 3rd: 1.42 4th: 1.12

I just want to add a 1.217 or 1.22 gear so I get:
1st: 2.25 2nd: 1.77 3rd: 1.42 4th: 1.21 5th: 1.12

I will get more gears later but that would be a good start

[HayesCages]

Trying to find that 1st will be hard I think. I believe all of the 5 speed 1st gears are integral with reverse, like ours. It is a 2.92:1 ratio.
Scotty at Taylor would be the guy to talk to.

[tumba]

Thought I may as well disassemble and photograph the guts...
Driven shaft is 1" OD with 6 splines. Input shaft is stock VW. Not sure of the year though. Seems to me the R/P is a 4.12:1.
1st/reverse gear slides on output shaft. 1st gear is 13/38, so just for standing starts.
All gears used are std. Mk series which are nominally .565" or 9/16"(.560" measured).

How wide is the gear/bearing space in your r/1-hub in the photo, is it 1.447" ?
On mine it is only 35.5mm (~1.4")
Either I machine my hub to work with std width mk gears or buy a new one from Taylor.


I looked at my bearing carrier and it has no serial number