New FB Builder

[Foggylegend]

Hi All,

I am new to the car building world all the way from South Africa. I dont have much experience apart from designing and building my own motorcycles (the old school way).

I have been designing my own Formula 1000 car for the last 4 months using Google Sketchup free version! (Due to lack of funds). Even though this is a good program, it doesnt offer at all what you need to design a race car.

I finally managed to purchase SolidWorks 2013 Massive improvement!!! but havent had the time to redesign my model in SW. So far I have decided to build a chassis simular to the configuration of the Speads RM07. (Hope this doesnt upset anybody). I am using my own calculations to design the chassis and I'm only using the basic layout (look) of it.

I've always wanted to race in a Formula class but unfortunately they are limited in South Africa. I would like to promote this class in SA as a cheaper alternative to the open wheel race cars we currently have available. I currently have a engineering shop and some motorsport companies for help with designing and building of the car.

Even though I have this support, I need every bit of help I can get for this project. I would also be open in the case of a current manufacturer who would be interested in promoting the sport in South Africa (Maybe ship all the chassis through to SA and the body work/engine etc. can be done locally).

Motorsport is very popular in South Africa but due to a lack in finances, most people can only dream of racing (me being one of them). This is why I decided to do what ever it takes to get me in one of these cars!

If there is anybody willing to share some advice or some secrets, I would appreciate any help I can get. And I hope you wont mind all the questions I have.

P.S. I will upload some pics of my Sketchup F1000 model a bit later.

Thank you all for the information you have provided so far on this thread. I dont think I would have ever gotten this far without you all.

Stephan Grové

[asw]

Do you need help with the design of the mechanical components of the car or the shape of the car?

[Foggylegend]

Do you need help with the design of the mechanical components of the car or the shape of the car?

Anything on the mechanical components of the car would be appreciated, the shape is already designed.

[Foggylegend]

Hi All,

I have attached some pics of my project, so far just called R326. This is the first attempt and there is still a lot of work to be done. I haven't yet factored in the GCR so some of the design will change including the side pods and wings for aerodynamic purpose. I have to redesign it in SW anyways as this was done in Sketchup as was mentioned before.

I wanted to attempt to design the chassis in Sketchup but knowing what I went through just to design the body, I decided to rather wait till I have SW. Now that I finally have it, I can redesign the body and start on the chassis.

Please let me know what you think.

Stephan Grové

[S Lathrop]

I would look to the Formula Fords as the guidance for your project. The FF design is much closer to what is really necessary for a F1000. The biggest difference is that the chassis needs to be much stiffer.

Think carefully if you want a really effective race car or you want an ego boost, F1 look alike car.

Check the archives of Apexspeed for all the pictures of the F1000 that people have posted.

The current Citation is drawn in SW2013 and we have been doing simulation in SW 2013 as well.

As to the rear drive assembly, I think that Lee Stohr had the best approach to mounting the engine, rear drive assembly and suspension. That is where I got the inspiration for the Citation rear drive structure.

When you design a car, you need to start with the most basic items first. What engine and drive system, and what tires are you going to use. In the US, the tire of choice is rubber originally designed for FC with 6 and 8 inch rims. Even though the rules allow 8 and 10 inch rims, the fast cars run 7 and 9 inch rims because that is all these tires will fit on. The FC tires are almost the same size as US FF tires but without the cantilevered rear sections. The wider rims add strength to the tires to allow them to handle the higher loads of the F1000.

The tires for the 8 and 10 inch wheels are all designed for cars approaching 1400 lbs. (635 kg). Your F1000 should be closer to 1000 lbs. (454 kg) fully loaded.

The next item should be some idea of the suspension geometry and where the links might want to be. You know where the driver, engine and fuel will go. Your job now is to build a frame that holds all that together as rigidly as possible. Choose a suspension geometry that is easy on you tires and is easy to tune. This is especially true at the front.

F1000 is an evolution of FC which has is foundation in FF. While you can build anything you want, think about what the rules might be for the car you are building. If there is a FF class in SA, start with those rules as a base for the car.

If you have the simulation software with SW anchor the rear of the car at the axels and twist the front through the front uprights. A good FF might be 400 kgf/m/degree. You should think double that as a goal.

When all that is done, then think about the body work and aero package.

[Rick Ross]

I would look to the Formula Fords as the guidance for your project. The FF design is much closer to what is really necessary for a F1000. The biggest difference is that the chassis needs to be much stiffer.

Think carefully if you want a really effective race car or you want an ego boost, F1 look alike car.

All FB designer/builders should give the above statement serious consideration. Outstanding advice from an experienced constructor.

[Foggylegend]

I would look to the Formula Fords as the guidance for your project. The FF design is much closer to what is really necessary for a F1000. The biggest difference is that the chassis needs to be much stiffer.

So far I have been working with FC as a reference and did not take FF too much into consideration but will from now on. We have FF in SA and will continue to go to events and gather information from builders/drivers.

Think carefully if you want a really effective race car or you want an ego boost, F1 look alike car.

I started racing motorcycles in SA and have been doing it on and off for the last 13 Years. I only recently decided that I feel more comfortable in four wheel racing than two and was able to push a lot harder. I have an ego just like everybody does but the reason I am designing, building and racing the car is purely due to limitations. I don't know of a Formula class in SA that offers anything close to what you have in the US. There is a lot of people who want to race and not enough finance to allow for a bigger group to race, and classes are limited to due to funding. Sometimes people are turned away just because there simply isn't enough room and not enough money for another group. This makes it increasingly difficult to prove yourself as a better racer. That is why I want to introduce this as a alternative and I know that this will draw enough racers ready to try it out.

As to the rear drive assembly, I think that Lee Stohr had the best approach to mounting the engine, rear drive assembly and suspension. That is where I got the inspiration for the Citation rear drive structure.

Im glad we can come to the same conclusion here, It makes me feel that I am kinda on the right track.

When you design a car, you need to start with the most basic items first. What engine and drive system, and what tires are you going to use. In the US, the tire of choice is rubber originally designed for FC with 6 and 8 inch rims. Even though the rules allow 8 and 10 inch rims, the fast cars run 7 and 9 inch rims because that is all these tires will fit on. The FC tires are almost the same size as US FF tires but without the cantilevered rear sections. The wider rims add strength to the tires to allow them to handle the higher loads of the F1000.

The tires for the 8 and 10 inch wheels are all designed for cars approaching 1400 lbs. (635 kg). Your F1000 should be closer to 1000 lbs. (454 kg) fully loaded.

The next item should be some idea of the suspension geometry and where the links might want to be. You know where the driver, engine and fuel will go. Your job now is to build a frame that holds all that together as rigidly as possible. Choose a suspension geometry that is easy on you tires and is easy to tune. This is especially true at the front.

Thank you for the information with regards to the rim sizes. I have been trying to figure out what would be the best setup and now have much more to go on.

I have been giving a lot of thought into the geometry of the car and the suspension mounting points, researching for the last 5/6 months. I started with the body work because I wanted to get a feel for what the car would look like. The only thing that kept me from designing the chassis first was the software I was using. Now that I have the proper software, I have already started to design the car from the ground up.

If you have the simulation software with SW anchor the rear of the car at the axels and twist the front through the front uprights. A good FF might be 400 kgf/m/degree. You should think double that as a goal.

I finally have the software and will keep that into consideration.

Thank you for all the information.

Stephan Grové

[Foggylegend]

What would be considered a good value for speed and vehicle stability in F1000?

[S Lathrop]

When I started racing FF, 90 inches was common. The thinking then was that long wheel base cars would not do tight corners very well.

The fact was that the short wheel base Zink Z10 I first worked with was not very good in slow corners. Bad push. The next car was the Z16 which was better at 90 inches as well but still not great. Then I went to 95" and that car was better. The next step was 98 inches and it was better yet. Now I am at 103 and the current car is the best.

Along with the long evolution came the wide evolution. For decades, my cars were the widest. VD then went to the rules limits of 185 cm. and I followed. That is where you should be.

In short, you get less load transfer to the out side or the front wheels in cornering and braking with wider and longer cars. Thus you end up getting more performance from the four tires than you get from a highly loaded single or pair of tires.

Narrow track cars was one of the ways the rules were able to limit car performance. F1 being the prime example. It limits both the tire performance and the aero package.

Speaking to cost: the bike engine cars are way cheaper than automobile based engine. In general, the bike engine with transmission will cost about what the transmission alone will cost for a FF or FC. In the US, you can get very low mileage or even new engines for way less than a rebuild of a bike engine. In general the cost of an engine is below $5,000US. A new FF or FC engine ready to go will top $10,000US, easily. However, the Fit engine is getting under that number.

I would look at what is available in SA for engines. Also, I would recommend that you not use high performance engines if possible. Durability is an issue with the US F1000 class, but the performance is way up there. Compared to other formula cars that are as fast as an F1000, the US F1000 is much less expensive. I would recommend an engine in the 150HP to 160HP range. This should give great performance and longevity both.

[Foggylegend]

I was planning to make the wheelbase 95 inches but I will have to rethink the current size. The width is currently at 182 cm.

The nice thing is there are plenty of GSXR engines and plenty of other bike engines for that matter going around in SA. And they are relatively inexpensive, especially compared to FF. I want to stick to the same rules as the SCCA GCR for F1000 in order to keep costs on these cars low and to keep to one standard of competition rules.

Thank you

Stephan Grové

[Riaanc]

Hi Stephan,

Where are you situated?

Firstly, we have a F1000 built in Cape Town,, or now Gauteng, I am not sure where the Speads works are now. Maybe not even in SA anymore. I have had no involvement in racing for the last 4 years, so I have to re-built contacts and knowledge from the start again.

I would convert an existing chassis, either FFord or F Gti to motorcycle power. In fact, as I am sitting with about 5 Ray 92 chassis, I am planning to start such a conversion soon.

Look at a home for your car in Formula Libre.

Kind regards
Riaan Cilliers

[Foggylegend]

Hi Stephan,

Where are you situated?

Hi Riaan,

I stay in Centurion, Pretoria.

Firstly, we have a F1000 built in Cape Town,, or now Gauteng, I am not sure where the Speads works are now. Maybe not even in SA anymore. I have had no involvement in racing for the last 4 years, so I have to re-built contacts and knowledge from the start again.

That is great, I was not aware that there where other F1000 builders in SA. This changes things a bit. As far as I know Speads are located in Australia and distribute cars in UK, SA, USA and Australia through other local distributors. I also need to build up contacts and need much more knowledge as far as Im concerned, so if you would like to meet up and maybe exchange some ideas please mail me (grovestephan@gmail.com).

I would convert an existing chassis, either FFord or F Gti to motorcycle power. In fact, as I am sitting with about 5 Ray 92 chassis, I am planning to start such a conversion soon.

I dont suppose you have one of those chassis up for sale? Or maybe know of someone that is selling one? That would make things a whole lot easier for me. And also if you need any help in the conversion of these cars just let me know.

Look at a home for your car in Formula Libre.

Formula Libre sounds ideal for my car. I couldnt find any info about race events or registration on their site though but will give them a call for more details later.

Stephan Grové

[Riaanc]

Hi,

PM me for the cell no of the Libre chairman and management team.

There is a race this weekend, Phakisa, I think.

I am at work now, so will e-mail you the race schedule and other assorted bumpf when I get home.

Welcome, yeah, we can talk re the chassis. How's your fabrication skills.

Regards
Riaan

[Foggylegend]

I don't know if I will be able to make it to Phakisa this weekend, I've got a Lotus 7 I am currently working on. I have been fixing a couple of bikes for people and have been falling a bit behind with the Lotus. Are you planning on going?

I wouldn't call myself an expert fabricator but I have build a couple of things, mostly bikes. The Lotus I'm working on is modified for the owner so it is a bit longer and wider then the original. It has a Ford V6 engine which has been moved further back for a better CoG. I am now busy building the bonnet and front nose piece. The owner started building the car and was unfortunately unable to complete the car due to a "stroke-thing of some sort" (as he put it).
Most of the car is covered in sheet metal (he completed himself) and the bonnet and nose piece will be fiberglass. The car was standing for a couple of years before I started working on it and a lot of the the car needs fixing. Let me know if you want some pics of my projects and I'll upload some when I get a chance.

Stephan Grové

[marshall9]

Cool that a project is going on in SA. Kudos to Mr. Lathrop for the advice.

[Foggylegend]

Cool that a project is going on in SA. Kudos to Mr. Lathrop for the advice.