BT21 Twin Cam

[Docwatto]

Hi from Oz,

I run a 1982 RP31M Royale FF at present and I am on the look out for a Brabham BT21 twin cam. I have seen a few for sale but would like to exhaust (pardon the pun) all avenues. Down under we must have proper identificaion to have it Historically Log Booked, so that is a must. Nothing is set in stone so I'm open to all ideas.
Regards David

[rv greg]

http://www.britishracecar.com/AlMurray-Brabham-BT21.htm This car is for sale

[Rick Kirchner]

having seen a similar post recently i have to ask - What is the deal with the Aussies and this heritage BS? Are they afraid that someone will start producing vintage cars from scratch? And if they did, so what?

[DaveZ]

I had the pleasure (and honor, frankly) of restoring and owning the 8th Brabham built, FJ-8-62, which, along with another of the 11 BT2's, was the late Frank Gardner's factory ride to 4th place in the '62 European F-Jr championship series. When the season ended, Frank had it shipped to his homeland Australia, where it stayed and was raced continuously by several owners, until being brought here to the U.S. around 2002.

Obvioulsy this was 41 years later, and plenty of time had gone by for things to go wrong in terms of whether or not it really was the car it was represented to be. When I acquired it in mid-2003 as a pile of parts and crates, I did a lot of study of its past, and communicated with several key Aussies who either owned or knew of the car's ownership lineage and racing history. What I learned was that the "heritage BS" is anything but that to those guys, and rightfully so. Thankfully, I also learned my car was what it was claimed to be, indeed one of the two works cars from the '62 season.

As most vintage racers know, the problem is that there have been numerous, non-disclosed "reproductions" of numerous significant vintage race cars pop up over the years, but as I found out, this issue apparently had become a very significant one in Australia. The sarcastic remark that "of the 15 (fill in the marque) built, 22 of them are still racing", pretty well sums it up. Whether Australia or anywhere in the world, reproductions that are stated as such are not the problem; the problem is with the ones that are claimed to be the real deal but aren't. So, CAMS, the sanctioning body of vintage (and much other) racing in Australia, has rightfully taken a very dim view of these non-disclosed reproductions, and they really clamp down on issuing log books to those that they suspect are not the real deal. In other words, if you can't prove it's what you claim it is, you ain't gonna get a log book, hence you ain't gonna race it there.

This is why serious Australian buyers/collectors have the penchant they do for period-correctness, authenticity, and being able to trace through the entire ownership history of a particular car. And, IMHO, these are practices we'd do well to follow over here with our collectibles if we want to ensure their continued value both on and off the track.

[giffo]

And, IMHO, these are practices we'd do well to follow over here with our collectibles if we want to ensure their continued value both on and off the track

.

Please don't, It will be all the better for us when you blokes start importing them all back once the dollar tends reverse.

[FONT=Verdana]However while what you say is very true the pendulum can also swing too far the other way which in turn can make things unnecessarily very difficult.[/FONT]
For a lot of guys here the history is as equally important as the car itself.

Back to topic, I know the guy looking for the BT18, genuine buyer wanting a genuine FB, he could also be tempted by a later pre 1970 model Brabham.

[Rick Kirchner]

my point is that sanctioning bodies develop rules and in the absence of a promoter, put on races - but requiring that the "provenance" be established to get a logbook? - that's BS.

If they wanted to offer an "authentication service" then fine - two different kinds of logbooks I suppose.

Your investment is your investment, reproduction or genuine, and it really shouldn't matter to a sanctioning body. It's just an old race car, and you can pull the number plate off and park a new frame underneath easily enough, so the only thing you are really tracing is a paper path of old logbooks back to the original owner.

If you have a "collectable" it's hardly a race car anymore - it's a "drive car". Yeah, I know some guys still drive 'em hard.

Thank god we don't participate in that stuff over here. Sounds a lot like the AKC running a race group.

[Roger Eade]

Rick
In fact that is what is done, both in New Zealand and Australia, you have the vehicle log book, safety and tech auditing, and a COD, which gives the cars DNA, in Australia it is harder to get (COD), but here in NZ we are reviewing our processes in bring them into aline more with Australia, in NZ for certain types of race car, you can have a reproduction, or build a retrospective type of vehicle, and this will be listed as such in your COD, and we are cracking down on this type of vehicle, in that, all must be period, no if's no but's, as we get many people saying " oh we can't get this or can't get that", and now the short answer is well you can't get a CoD, full stop
Roger

QUOTE=Rick Kirchner;368554]my point is that sanctioning bodies develop rules and in the absence of a promoter, put on races - but requiring that the "provenance" be established to get a logbook? - that's BS.

If they wanted to offer an "authentication service" then fine - two different kinds of logbooks I suppose.

Your investment is your investment, reproduction or genuine, and it really shouldn't matter to a sanctioning body. It's just an old race car, and you can pull the number plate off and park a new frame underneath easily enough, so the only thing you are really tracing is a paper path of old logbooks back to the original owner.

If you have a "collectable" it's hardly a race car anymore - it's a "drive car". Yeah, I know some guys still drive 'em hard.

Thank god we don't participate in that stuff over here. Sounds a lot like the AKC running a race group.[/QUOTE]

[Docwatto]

Thanks guys for your feed back, I love a good decussion, but it is what it is down under. I'm not the race car expert but here and in NZ you get some fantastic historical cars.
Take care all and let me know if you hear of any thing, and it doesn't have to be Brabham.
Regards Watto

[dereklola]

A good representation of the various points of view - but nobody has brought up one particular aspect - and that is that many "genuine" vintage cars are in fact "reproductions" in the sense that either in their original life or later in their vintage life there has been a need to replace a major part or parts of the car due to wear, breakage, accident or whatever. Guess what - it gets a "new" replacement part and is still considered a genuine vintage car.

Many, maybe most, vintage race cars exhibit this grandfather's ax syndrome.

A friend had a big accident with his car - ended up replacing/remaking 95% of the car - he documented it well and there was no argument about authenticity. But are we fooling ourselves?

I'm not trying to argue against the Australian (or British) way of doing things - nor against our American way - and certainly not trying to justify "fake reproductions" - just pointing out an additional fact of life.

Then there's the aspect of "over renovation" - over-polishing, flawless fiberglass, leather seats etc - they're not genuine. A well know professional racer renovated one of his early rides without any of this "extra" stuff - in other words "more genuine" - believe it or not I heard quite a few derogatory remarks about his poor standard of renovation!

As Watto so correctly said "It is what it is"

Derek

[Rick Kirchner]

Years ago I dropped by Bahner's shop so that he could give me an estimate on my crashed Royale SV. He had Jackie Stewart's Tyrell 001? in there. some dot com gazillionaire had crashed it head on into something really solid, so Marc got the original drawings from Ken Tyrell and was re-creating the tub from scratch. Maybe the front hoop, rear hoop, and firewall were re-usable, but that's about it. Definitely a case of parking a new car under the chassis plate!

The thing that got me thinking about this whole "provenance" thing was the guy looking for "history" on his 1997 VD....... I mean - they made something like 500 of them from 1990 to 1998.

[Charles Warner]

.
Take care all and let me know if you hear of any thing, and it doesn't have to be Brabham.
Regards Watto

Does it have to be a non-ground effects car? How about an atlantic with great Aussie ties and proven provenance?

[Docwatto]

Charles, I have move or less set on non ground effect car, however.......there is always a reason why to change, what are you suggesting....email me direct if you like.


Regarding the other suggestions for repairs and keeping them genuine, it is acceptable to have documeneted repairs etc. not a problem. If a chassis is written off why not cut the chassis number and tag it back onto the chassis.

[Blah]

Google Frank Williams BT21, that car is for sale in NZ, don't bother going over with any less than 90k NZD. Documented history and well maintained. The car is not mine unfortunately but the owner is looking to sell. PM me if you want his contact information.

[Charles Warner]

Charles, I have move or less set on non ground effect car, however.......there is always a reason why to change, what are you suggesting....email me direct if you like.

email on the way.

Thanks.

[giffo]

Hey Watto

[FONT=Verdana]It will be all slicks & wings on our side of the country for the next few years, go get that MARCH 75B advertised & bring it here. I'll give you a race.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]In Aust by far the strongest & most competitive group on the east coast is 1960's cars on the west it is a little hit & miss but looking like we are in for a strong showing of 70’s Atlantics & F2’sfor the coming next few seasons with some new acquisitions brought it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I saw that ex Williams Brabham when we raced at Hampton Downs in 2011. Can see why you'd fall in love with that. At least with the Kiwi dollar 90k is that same as 10k in AU$ isn't it? (A cross Tasman dig to our Kiwi cousins )[/FONT]

[Blah]

Yeh that's about all the Aussie tractor is worth. Lol

[bob darcey]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brabh...item43b7288d58

[giffo]

Watto has now found his new lover and I suspect will be flying to it's where abouts in a couple of weeks to sqease himself into her.
While its not my place to say which car it was far less than the one on ebay and I wouls say at least every bit as good or possibly better.