I invite the persons concerned to step up and tell their side of the story. By all means let's have an open and transparent discussion of the issues.Originally Posted by Wren
What say you, Mirl, Keith and Jim?
I invite the persons concerned to step up and tell their side of the story. By all means let's have an open and transparent discussion of the issues.
What say you, Mirl, Keith and Jim?
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Mike, I'm sorry but having entered our car in both the Runoffs for the past 3 years and the Pro Series last year, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Tim may have a Honda now, but for all intents and purposes he is doing the same times that he was doing with his Kent at Road America and would be doing this year if he still had a Kent. The Honda engine behind him has very little to do with Tim being on provisional pole. What it gives him is reliability, the thing he didnt have last year when he went through 4 Kents in one week. His car is faster because of all the aero and re-engineering of the chassis that he and Paul did over the past year.
As far as the Pro Series being dominated by Honda, this is only because this year the big teams have come in with new cars and for good reason they have put Hondas in their cars, which are being driven by very talented young drivers. Last year there were any number of Ford powered cars that were competitive. Those same cars, including ours, have sat out this year for various reasons having nothing to do with Ford v. Honda.
I still have a Ford in our Swift and I actually enjoy the rivalry that exists between the two engines. Eventually we will switch to a Honda, but not because it is superior, only because it is more economical over the long haul.
The idea that the Honda "killed" the class is really off base. If anything, it gave the class new life. The class needed a modern engine. Would we all have preferred that the new engine have been a Ford? Of course. But Ford would not step up to the plate. Honda did, and they should be thanked for doing so.
Last thing--the big beef that I see with the revision of the rules that sparked this thread was not the rule change itself, but once again the process that produced the change. Doing things in secret, without advance notice, and without a clear explanation of why it is being done, is guaranteed to provoke a backlash.
Take care.
Tom
Agreed
There is very little that happens within SCCA that appears to be above board to me. In the above instance I feel like Mike did the best thing---he had a vested interest in the outcome and "abstained". If only everyone else abstained when they had a vested interest in the outcome there wouldn't be so many black helicopters in orbit.
Tom-
extrapolating from one good team going through "4 Kent engines in one week" to there's Kent reliability problems to the reliability problem justifies a switch to the alternate engine defies rational and objective logic! how many Loyning prepared Kent engine failures have you experienced to date in your car? racing engine reliability is normally closely associated with power output and your engines appear to make "pretty good power". the little that is known publicly about the 4 engine failures suggests a common failure mode, a propogating failure mechanism, or some combination thereof. typical examples of a common failure mode would be improperly heat treated valve springs seen occasionally on Sunday afternoon watching a NASCAR race, a bad batch of crankshafts with inadequate input shaft relief, or a collapsing input hose from the dry sump tank to the pressure pump. typical examples of a propogating failure mechanism would be debris from the previous failure remaining in the oil hoses, oil cooler, or dry sump tank. 4 engine failures in one week strongly suggests that the root cause of the initial failure was not identified prior to installation of the next engine.
the aero and structural packaging performance advantages for alternate engine installations were forecast during initial discussions of the engine.
has conversion of your DB-6 started or will it be a new Piper with an alternate engine for you guys next year??
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Art,
My thoughts exactly
Rick Kean
Houston
Art,
Ignoring all your other valid points for a momment...if most of us went through 4 kent engines in a season I don't think there would be much rational or objective logic involved, it'd likely be all emotional. If we were rational and objective we would have never blown up #3 if we had an option to install a Honda.
Art, I dont disagree with you. In the past 6 years we have had exactly ZERO failures in our Lloynings Kent engines. This is the main reason we still have a Kent in our car and the main reason we have Arnie building our engines.
However, what you know all too well is that to maintain that level of reliability, a Kent engine needs regular and repeated attention. That costs money.
With a Honda you dont need to have your engine apart regularly to make sure everything is in order and to replace whatever isnt. We dont even know yet exactly how much longer a Honda will go than a Kent without any maintenance because so far nobody has needed to open up their Honda, and some are on their 4th year of racing the Honda. Maybe you do, but I dont know of a single Honda engine failure since they were approved.
In the end I bet the Honda will go at least 3 times and propbably as much as 5 times longer than a Kent without any attention being paid to it.
So, your point is well taken about the improved reliability of the Kent, but still it is not anywhere near to what one will get out of a Honda.
As for our car, it has not been converted yet nor has any conversion been started. It is a well developed package with a great Kent engine and we are loathe to mess with a good thing. We've talked about converting though. I am a big fan of the Kent, dont get me wrong, but we both know it is not equal to the Honda in terms of reliability.
Take care.
Tom
Back to Keith Averills post , we certainly did NOT start the series "for them" [the unspoken Honda/HPD]. We started it BECAUSE of "them", them being the inclusion of the Fit, exactly was we started the F2000 series BECAUSE SCCA accepted the Zetec into F.
No denying HPD is a partner but please remember the series is 2 seasons old and the championship score is 1 all, Kent won 2011 and Fit 2012. Their contribution, while appreciated and much needed, certainly does not buy them a championship.
Going forward, no doubt the field is to tilted toward the Fit but for exactly the same reason the F2000 field is predominately Zetec.
With 3 +/- hours of track time per weekend a long lived detuned modern motor just makes sense over the highly developed and stressed old architecture of the Kent and the Pinto motors, to say nothing of shrinking good parts availability.
I know well Jay Ivey et all have access to as much good stuff as needed but the fact remains, putting 5000+ competitive miles on a top Kent without at minimum freshening if not outright rebuilding is unlikely to happen.
So, we started the F1600 Formula F series becasue we saw a class that had been shrinking starting to grow and prosper. The glory days of 60+ entries is long gone never to return, but good competition has not.
Tom- As far as the Honda vs the Kent.I only have my experience to go on.The Honda has better throttle response, I have seen it.We have a racer in SW that has gone quicker because of the Honda's throttle response.Now Tim, I am sure is getting all the Honda's got and he is under the track record for qualifying and at least a half second faster than he has ever gone at RA.The Honda is suppose to be at somewhat a disadvantage at a track with as many straightaways as RA and it has an advantage at tighter tracks.If it's better at RA and then also the tigher tracks then it has a clear advantage..Tim had really good Kent motors better than 99% of all the other Kents just as you do.
By the way I abstained because it was the right thing to do as I am a competitor in FF.Any other position would have been self serving and not in the best interests of the club.
Mike, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't LC3 under the track record as well? Wasn't there track records set the same day in other classes as well? Maybe conditions were ideal & it wasn't all Honda.
Steve Bamford
Ignoring all the other variables and assigning all the improvement to the Honda is not exactly the best way to do things.
Also, why aren't the other Honda's that entered at the front of the grid?
Steve Bamford
I wonder how much faster he would be if he'd spent $15K with Arnie instead of HPD.
The ship has sailed. If people are stupid enough to park their FFs, rather than enjoy the growth and increased competition, then let them. For every car parked, only because of the Honda presence, there may be 10 new people attracted to the class. SCCA FF numbers are down because they have not been welcome to Hondas for the past few years. It will take a few years to recover.
Car values have improved. Kent engine values may be down, but that means more buying power for those continuing to run kents. Continuing to complain about the Honda presence is not helping the class in any way and decreasing the value of the kent equipment. Let it go.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Mike, last year Bill was faster at every track we went to and under the track record by a huge margin at several tracks, using a Kent, not a Honda. Lots of things are happening to make the cars go faster. Better tires. Better cars. Better shocks. Drivers getting better. There are 101 reasons why lap times are always falling. The Honda engine alone is not the reason a local driver is setting lap records near you.
As far as you abstaining, I think it was the right thing to do and applaud you for putting your own interests aside.
CRB letter
Mike,
I'm sure there were F/Ford owners who voted for you because they thought you would look after their interests.
I guess anyone on the board who drives one class or another, those classes are exposed to the will of others.
Also
Can you explain, with a tied vote, how was SCCA allowed to call the class something else ? I thought the SCCA by-laws required a majority vote to pass anything?
Tom- I understand that nothing is static in racing.My point is ,consider many competitors alternatives.Buy a Honda at 13-20K conversion costs or keep rebuilding the Kents.When everyone had a kent the cost of motors was consistent as was the performance loss as the motor was used.Let's say you have a good motor that you run the season and freshen before runoffs.The same motor can run next year for the season.Many perceive the cost affordable to be competitive under those comparisons.Let's say you spend 15k to do the conversion to Honda.Your motor costs are all up front 15K.My budget has never been 15K for one season.The cost of the Honda will keep many away from National racing.Look at the numbers.Honda may have brought several new competitors and thats great but how many existing are either not going to run as much or quit because of costs.The reason I am not at the Runoffs is because of the costs of changing to a Honda.
I not against the Honda it make sense for many.Let's see what the numbers look like in a few years.
Hey Mike,
9 out of the top 10 qualifiers disagree with you. Or to put it another way, if everyone thought like you, there would only be 5 cars there.
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
To put some actual data behind a conversion and defunct the '15k to convert' underinformed opinions: my Ivey kent (that I bought from you) was at 22hrs when I converted. I took that motor, header, bushman starter, spares, kent tools, etc and liquidated. Took that money, the $4500 I was going to spend rebuilding the kent and an additional $800 (and my own labor) and the conversion was done with spare alternator, starter, most electronics. I had spent basically one engine rebuild to get an engine that I anticipate will go 3-5 times longer and have a significantly reduced FWF (so, you know, I can have a job between races too). And more importantly it wasn't your cast off mish-mash of parts that was not represented to be what you sold.
For existing competitors with assets that are not necessary once conversion completes you are not out of pocket $15k. Far far less. Perhaps a bit more who have to make their own water pipes and such, but many many cars can be made to work without major rebuilding the car. The Club Ford and Vintage market for good used Kents is not going away, softening perhaps, but not going away like the Pinto motor.
Starting from scratch is going to cost out of pocket to get in, but thats not really a valid argument. So is acquiring a new national quality Kent. We (as a class) should indeed be worried about not alienating the existing competitors, but I don't hear anyone not yet competing feeling alienated by the Honda except for, well, one outlier who isn't going to get on the track in his, your or my lifetime anyway with either engine.
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Not in Cen-Dev. Our FF fields, like the Runoffs field, were considerably smaller this year - e.g., Sprints had just 10 entries IIRC. The Blackhawk SuperTour, I think, had five FFs.
In the past 2-3 years, a number of usual suspects in Cen-Div have not been running or were racing considerably fewer times a season. We've had one new FF driver. For our division, at least, I do not believe that it is possible to support the argument that for every car parked, there have been or may be 10 new people attracted to the class - or anything resembling this claim. In fact, there has been far more parking going on than attracting and joining.
Wishing things were different doesn't make them so. Perhaps if in other regions, 10 new drivers are showing up because of modern engines, someone might ask these folks to come to the Runoffs and boost entries to where they used to be?
Last edited by Allen_W; 09.23.12 at 8:22 AM.
That's not what he said.
He said (my emphasis added): For every car parked, only because of the Honda presence, there may be 10 new people attracted to the class.
I'm an example of someone who joined FF because of the Honda engine. I was looking for a fun class where I would spend as little effort as possible maintaining the engine.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Welcome, but there aren't many of you. And there is no way there are 10 new people attracted for anyone leaving, for whatever reason. Not in Cen-Div - the class is not growing. That was my point.
If you look at the USA and Canada (which is relevent to me) over the last 3 yrs, Honda has delivered over 60 FIT engines ... we have 6 new Mygales, 2 Spectrums, a run of Pipers (10?), over a dozen FC conversions to FF, new FF1600 Pro Series, and a proven spec tire within that Series. That is more growth in these troubled times than any other formula class in North America, despite SCCA's joke restrictor plate for 2 of those years.
If you live in a non-friendly Honda area, or an area where the Runoffs are considered relevent, or both, then your perception may be different, but no more accurate than mine. I invested $50K in the class because of Honda and that growth.
I wish the people with existing cars would race more, but I expect that is more to do with the economy, general SCCA BS, and the Runoffs being at RA, than because they are afraid of more competition.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
To drivers new to FF? Conversions don't add cars to fields.
I didn't say people were parking cars due to an imagined Honda competitive threat; I just pointed out that (national) FF where I know it is getting smaller fields than it was even 4-5 years ago.
And, no, I am not focused on the Runoffs; our fields in FF and a number of classes in Cen-Div are smaller. I read a post that spoke of "growth and increased competition." I don't think so.
I have no clue what you mean by a Honda unfriendly area - in fact, 2 of the cars I can think of that are MIA in Cen-Div are Honda-powered. I just don't believe the 10-for-1 math or see growth.
The reason folks don't show up can be complex, or simple. Anyone notice the economy lately??? I have a Kent in my CFF and a spare under the bench. It still doesn't change the fact for reasons of job security and financial flow I won't make it to the track any time soon.
If I could sell both my Kent's, put in a Honda and it guarantee I made it on the track, I would do it. But it wouldn't change a thing.
I also would like more transparency by the CRB and SEB.
Thanks, Allen. I am really enjoying my FF. Compared to my past cars this has been the most hassle-free class by far, and the cars are a blast to race. I really like not having to worry about damaged wings and diffusers, fooling with the engine (much), and it's nice not needing a jump plug.
How many people can you name that are not racing their Formula Ford only because the Honda has been allowed? If you can name one (or two), we'll challenge problemchild to list nine (or nineteen) others who are racing because of the Honda. :-).
I am hoping and expecting to race against bigger FF fields when the economy gets better. We all know that's when we really get to enjoy racing to most. Going into impound after great dicing is what it's all about.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
I don't think that the Honda is the reason some cars are parked. But I don't think the Honda is a silver bullet causing growth and increased competition, either. I made an error earlier - we've had two new FF drivers in Cen-Div in the past 2 years. But we've lost more than we've added, so it just doesn't seem to me that the attraction of the modern engine has offset other issues. On the National level. Regionals, if I'm not mistaken, had a few more cars this year than last.
In Cen-Div, "it's the economy, stupid." I think. Economic worries that lead some to park their cars, others to race less - and at least one driver opting for less expensive racing with more track time. Also individual reasons (a new baby in the family, that sort of thing). I hear things about rules stability, track time, the Runoffs points system, and so on, as well.
As to the class, it is the only one I know. The cars are a total blast to drive, the folks I get to race with are a blast to race with, I have been tempted to try other things but, when all is said and done, have stayed happily put. But I do hate seeing a SuperTour with five participants . . .
I had the (dis)pleasure of getting to watch the Runoffs from T3, my car parked there, and seeing Tim and Lewis go by nose to tail, with Lewis seeming to me to pull better off the corner, contrary to what I would have expected, and Tim enjoying his wonderfully developed aero down the straight. Two great drivers running really strong programs, Kent vs Honda, looking quite evenly matched. If Kent guys are bailing due to the Honda, I don't get it. I don't actually know of any in Cen-Div that have done so . . .
True, conversions dont add people to the class, but they keep people racing that might otherwise have left the class.
Conversions allow people to spend less money racing each year and that is really the key to the long term health of the class. We now have an engine that can last years without having to spend money rebuilding it. And even after those many years are up you can put a junk-yard engine in for less than $1,000.
Now, if we could get the tire costs under control with a spec tire rule for club racing, people could go racing in FF without bankrupting themselves. I tried to get a spec tire rule in place 2 years ago, it was shot down by those who said it would compromise the performance of the cars. The Pro series has shown that this was not the case.
Imagine if you had an FF that had an engine that lasts for years and tires that last for several races. Then you would really have a class that was attractive to both people thinking of joining the class and those already in it.
Last edited by Tom Valet; 09.23.12 at 11:47 AM.
In theory, but I don't see a lot of that happening where I race. Conversions are expensive, so you have the short term hit during a bad economy. I am just guessing but am pretty sure that most (I can think of a possible exception or two) of the people converting would have kept racing Kents if the rules hadn't changed. In Cen-Div.
My whole point here is not to weigh in on where the class is with Kent/Honda, but just to say that we're far from growing and seeing increased competition - thus: I agree with where you're going. If we want to help the class, we first have to realize it is a bit down on participation and then look at all the reasons. Cost is the big one. And tires are the big cost. Interestingly, however, I can think of only one Cen-Div driver who opted for a less expensive brand of racing on leaving FF . . .
I like this idea a LOT! It could potentially save money and let me (and others) afford more race entry fees.
I always wonder why there wasnt a class where you have a FC take the wings off put in a restrictor plate, set up the suspension and go racing. The next weekend you want to race FC convert it back and race. Prob dumb idea huh?
One is not MIA. It is 40 minutes from Laguna Seca and enjoying every twist down the corkscrew it can possibly convince me to take it through.
Just because CenDiv (and apparently NEDiv) are relative ghost towns compared to previous years with regards to SCCA FF, overall in the past 2 years FF hasn't been healthier as a whole in 20 years with renewed interest from manufacturers (Mygale, Spectrum), pro level prep shops running driver development programs (Cape, Herta). By your same logic you can say FC is dead with only 10 cars at the runoffs. But ignoring the 35 car F2000 series fields rebukes that conclusion pretty solidly. Like FF, its not the class that is the problem, it is something else or perhaps you're drawing incorrect conclusions by a limited purview to the problem.
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Ahem, no, you are leaping to conclusions, I don't even know of a Cen-Div car in California, both cars I was thinking of are in WI, one not out at all this year, the other doing a regional or so, I think.
It's wonderful that manufacturers are active. It would be good to see more interest at the club level. In fact, I didn't say FF is dead. I was responding to the idea that FF is growing and increasing in SCCA and, true, focusing on where I know it, in national club racing in Cen-Div. Pro racing is great, but this discussion isn't about FF as a car type but SCCA club racing, I thought that because the post I replied to had a confusing (to me) reference to SCCA club racing. Nor, for the second time, did I focus on the Runoffs' turnout, having also and more importantly mentioned average number of entries, the Sprints, and a SuperTour. What you call a limited purview is really my sticking to the topic.
So, ok, I'm wrong, and the club class is booming, and nothing should be addressed. Fair enough.
Last edited by Allen_W; 09.23.12 at 5:51 PM.
Every time I read one of these threads I tell myself "Don't do it stupid...don't post." But, here I am being stupid.
So, first off..."saving the class" is mentioned often. When was it ever in jeopardy of losing national status or hurting for car counts? (yeah, it is not what it was in the old days - or what people claim the old days to be - but what is?) When then Honda deal came about FF was 4th or 5th in national participation. Hardly needed "saving".
As for adding cars at Nationals (after all, that is what we had as the intended goal when we "voted" on it to be added) it simply has not. Car counts are down, and down more than other classes. Do I attribute that to the Honda? No. But, it did not buck the trend. If you want to add in the Rand series, then you might be right. But, think about this... This was intended to ADD cars to SCCA, not a series for Honda. Essentially we have brought something in (Honda) that was suppose to save a non-threatened class and increase national/club entries, but the reality is it has done the opposite by cannibalizing entries for the Rand series.
What Allan is saying is correct. CenDiv is down, June Sprints was a joke, and the Runoffs barely had 20 cars. Simply, not booming and for many reasons. But I don't see people flocking to the Honda. And, ALL the Honda cars at the Runoffs were people who were currently racing in FF. Kautz, Bartz, Scanlan, Kephart, Cunningham, all were in FF already. No net gain there that I see.
Does anyone remember that the Honda was not suppose to be equalized to the best Kents on the planet on the best day? Well, it is now and there is not one person running at the front of the Runoffs that will say it isn't.
And again, my beef is what it does for the guys that are not financially able to convert. I've said it over and over. Remember I said this next year. Really...
The Honda is in, it is here. To late to do anything so we might as well love it. I know what I think has an advantage and which I would choose.
Here is another thing. I was talking to some people high up in Mazda about things at the Runoffs, and they asked me about the Honda. I didn't say much, it is what it is. Then one asked me what are they doing in other classes. It seems that Honda has a goal to have the same Road to Indy deal that Mazda has. They want to build a ladder system as well. Ok, that is very cool. The Mazda people I spoke with told me Honda came to them three years ago about how they are involved in club racing and using that as a way of creating their ladder. The Mazda people kind of joked that the Honda ladder is there, you just have to jump really far from the bottom rung to get to Indy. That made me think, that Honda wanted in to SCCA because they could then have a "viable" "pro" series. They have that, but seem to be getting no where with getting an engine in FC or Atlantic, or adding any rungs. Seems the ladder has stalled. I hope i am wrong, but what if they get no where in a few years? Will they still be around? Just a thought. Mazda did not seem impressed with the progress.
And Tom - I commend you on your attempt to make the class better and appreciate all that you and your family does for it. In respect to the spec tire thing, and this is what I told you when you asked me about it privately, what exactly are we voting on??? You asked, Do we want a spec tire? My answer was no, because it was not specific. What is that spec tire? Is it a rock hard R60 that still costs $1000/set, or is a tire that is close to a R35 that costs $500??? Simply, there was nothing to vote on other than a "spec tire". Could have been made of concrete for all I knew.
Unfortunately it's not easy to tell if the Honda engine inclusion "bucked the trend". For instance (and I'm just making this up), maybe there would have been even fewer cars on track if not for the Hondas. There are too many other variables involved.
We'd need a parallel universe so we could try both ways and then compare them in the end. :-).
What I want is a parallel universe in which my throttle linkage doesn't give out at the Runoffs.
Hi Reid,
The proposal that I submitted to the CRB, after extensive discussion here on Apex and after I had to talked to everyone I possibly could who had experience with spec tires, including Bruce Foss from Hoosier and Bob Shaffer at Goodyear, was very specific in terms of the performance parameters of a proposed spec tire, including price. Both companies said they could easily produce a tire that lasted far longer than their "open" tires and for less money if they had the exclusive contract.
But the real starting point for the proposal was to solicit feedback from the membership and if there was support, to then go about working with the manufacturers to develop a tire that met our needs.
From what I understand from the CRB, they issued a survey and requested input. Very few people wrote in so they took no action. And then a year later the Pro Series adopted a spec tire that has proven that you can have your cake and eat it too---longer lasting tires and no loss of performance. Yes, the Pro tires cost more but I am sure that this is a product of the contingency prizes that Hoosier pays out at each race---their other spec tires are significantly cheaper than current open tires.
Here is a link to the proposal I submitted in case there is a real interest by the FF community in reconsidering this idea. Someone else would have to pick up the ball and carry it though, I am not interested at this point in getting involved again:
http://apexspeed.com/forums/showthre...ight=spec+tire
Take care.
Tom
Yeah, that is sort of what I remember. Maybe I wasn't very clear, but it seemed we were voting on a fictitious tire that does not exist, and had not been made yet. For me, it was hard to vote on. Besides, if it was a GY that alone would have made me say no pretty much on the spot. Just not enough to vote on, and I think that is why people didn't write in. If there was a tire that was actually manufactured, and tested, that would have been very different.
I understand Reid, that was a valid concern. Now we have a tire though, so perhaps people might be a bit more receptive (?).
Very possible. For the Rand series, I see it as a great thing to keep cost in check.
For club, I like the FE tire rule myself. Seems pretty good.
Tech Buletin
I am sorry I did not want my comments to start anything.It is true though that since the Honda engine and PRO Series, FF has gone from 4th on the participation list to who knows this year I suspect 10th or lower.The numbers are not good.The perception that the Honda is cheaper to operate but very expensive to purchase may have something to do with that as well as the issues about performance.The cost of conversion is just another issue with the cost of racing in general.How many of the average club racer can fab all the stuff needed to make the conversion even if they are willing to spend 12k to buy the kit.Entry fees have gone up,fuel costs for transporting cars to the race track are the higher.The SCCA does not exactly make you want to invest that kind of money, thats why the PRO series does well.The club racer is malaffected by all that and the club numbers are really affected by all of the above.I don't think a spec tire will change the cost too much unless we run on a $500 a set tires and no tire manufacturer has an interest in building such a tire.
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