There goes the neighborhood...
There goes the neighborhood...
You won't have to worry about one of the three of us that run National events. I won't run with you. FM is much friendlier but since I can't stay there, I'll be extremely slow in AM or BM, whichever has fewer entries.
Lynn,Originally Posted by Lynn
Not to worry. He was joking. CM is very friendly and at least this old timer who remembers when Solo Vees were in CM in the 90's welcomes you back even though it does seem to worry the new CM FF guys. Before Jim Murphy lead the effort to give the at the time somewhat slower F440's and the few Solo Vees your own class neither was ever a real strong contender for the top spot at Nationals as I recall. Several F440's and maybe a Solo Vee earned trophies as I recall but in general only the slower FF's and S2's needed to "worry" about either F440's or Vees. In any case my view is that if a fully prep'd (or less) Solo Vee beats me it isn't a classing problem, it is MY problem. Especially since most of the FF's are beating me also. I opposed the change mostly in an effort to keep the class more attractive to new guys but I'm not really worried about any suddenly dominant Solo Vee.
Dick
Been around "a while"
I agree 100% with Dick.
Honestly, with improvements in tire technology seemingly everywhere but FF, I'm a bit more worried about what might be done with a Sports 2000 on new Avons or Goodyears, than I am the Solo Vee. When I had my Solo Vee we were in DM... here in Cal Club, that meant running against Chris O'Donnell. :-)
I dont agree with the move. While I don't imagine the solo vee being an overdog, I do fear what might happen if it is given more performance in the future.
Having said that, if it is to be this way than that is how it will be. I may be new to CM but this isn't my first rodeo, nor is this the first rules change I have disagreed with. I hold no grudge against anyone for the move and most certainly will be friendly with whoever shows up in grid. I think we can disagree about rules and still hoist a beer together (but only after we finish running and working)
At the end of the day we all share a common addiction for racing amongst cones. In the past twenty years that has been enough common bond for me to develop many new friendships. If that were to ever change I suspect then i would stop autocrossing.
Doug Wille
CM 65
P.S. On edit I have been told by my family that I am very unfriendly before I get coffee in the morning. You have been warned
P.P.S. - I think the S2 would be a great car for the class. I still remember Guy's car from back in the day. I looked at a few but they were either basket cases or too much money.
Last edited by DougW; 09.21.12 at 11:09 AM.
Guy indicated "back in the day" that is was relatively difficult to get an S2 to transition quickly compared to a FF.
The biggest disadvantage of an S2 (not counting the current price penalty) from my perspective is the bodywork is so BIG. Far too much to deal with in a typical garage or with just one small driver with an even smaller wife for crew. Probably more difficult to get on and off a trailer also and to clean off opr between runs. They are very much a two man operation in a large space. Lots of room for decals though which would make my wife happy.
Dick
CM 85
Doug,
You should be careful who you call an addict. 25 events so far this year and I still have a life
And yes to the friendships.
Mark
Last edited by mwizard; 09.21.12 at 11:41 AM.
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
Dick,
Yes on the body work. Frankly with my newly healed arm taking the tail off the Swift by myself rapidly degrades into a Monty Python skit.
What my addiction...err racing....needs is pit crew!
Doug
Hello all, my name is Richard and I am a Solo Vee owner/driver. I am also one of the people that petitioned the SEB for changes and suggested several options that might make our cars more competitive. And I am very surprised that they actually moved us considering how few SVs are running.
I was originally going to buy a FF but a good friend gave me a Vee body and chassis . In a delusional moment I actually thought I could build a car and be competitive against F500s. Even if I could roll back 30 or 40 years I doubt that would ever happen.
The purpose of this post is to thank all the FF drivers who have extended a hand to make the SVee drivers feel welcome. Running a national event is on my bucket list and hope to get to one next year and meet some of you. I have enjoyed watching your runs on Youtube and am amazed at how quickly your cars transition. and Doug not only would I enjoy hoisting one or two with you, I'll even buy the first round.
Remember----> Even a bad day autocrossing beats having to do yardwork.
no-cones: Welcome. I'll take another CM in Florida. Look me up. I'm near Jacksonville.
TeamFRD-1988 Van Diemen RF88-1267 FF1600 Solo:CM#99/199 http://yspect8.weebly.com
There goes the neighborhood. Bad move by the MAC & SEB to lose the GCR rules foundation.Still do not understand the reasoning behind this move...
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc.
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
Not to worry too much. Solo Vees were in CM from 1990 - 1992 and didn't keep a bunch of guys like myself from entering the class with our FF's in those days. Then they were moved to DM until FM came along. None of the moves seem to have made the Solo Vees particularly popular.
Dick
I don't think it is a matter of "worry", as far as competition goes (well, at least until we start getting proposals to make the Vees more "equal"). It is more about taking a class that was simple (consistent GCR's) and functional and muddying the waters,
The question no one can answer...and, believe me, I've asked...is WHY this was seen by the MAC as a good idea?
"The MAC neither intends nor expects the competitive position of the FF platform to change with this move."
So, why the move? If the Vees are seen as uncompetitive in FM and, now, CM, what possible upside is there in moving them? This was my nost basic question and it has NEVER been answered, outsids of some silliness of "Vees look more like Fords than the do F500's" Seriously, is that what it is all about? That is the weakest argument I've ever seen to justify a move. Think about all the classes in Solo that are made up of cars that "look" different...it is a complete non-starter, but appears to be the entire justification for making this move.
I'll be nice to the new kids in class, but that doesn't change my opinion that this move is yet another example of Solo making moves just to show "proactivity", without any real vision or consideration of quality control of the product.
I'm with you Mike, on all counts.
Doug
Let me preface this by saying I know next to nothing about F500's, F600's, etc...
But, I have seen some of the chatter regarding F600's, and wonder if this isn't a way to incorporate those cars into FM?
Is it possible to lower the minimum weight on the F500's? If FM could be made faster by changes in minimum weight, simple allowances, and or the addition of F600's, but was being held back by the attempt at parity with the Solo Vees, does this solve that problem?
Again, this is just uneducated speculation. I have no idea if there's any grounds for this, I just enjoy a good conspiracy theory... :-)
I don't believe the F600's have proven as fast as the F500's?
+1
As am I. I just do not understand the MAC/SEB reasoning on this move.
Like others have stated, I will welcome the SoloVee folks who come out and run, but it does not mean I like how this move was handled...
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
Bigger classes take longer to cycle through the course, so there will be a bit more time for driver changes, tuning adjustments, video and data analysis, mental preparation, gossip with the neighbors, polishing lug nuts, etc.
Neil, you have such a way of getting to the essence of the issue
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
At Nationals, cars are released every 15 to 20 seconds. I'm sure everyone will make good use of the extra 30 or 40 seconds.
Solo Vee rules changes review and proposals
Attached you will find the pdf titled "Solo Vee rule considerations" authored by SoloVee driver John Whitling. Here is the message John sent along with the proposal :
Hi Chris
Congrats on the weekend, and I hope and expect that you've recovered by now. I wanted to forward you a document regarding solo vee rules proposals to keep you in the loop. Please feel free to distribute this as you see fit and of course to comment accordingly with the members of the MAC.
Good luck to you and John at Nationals
John Whitling
Last edited by -pru-; 11.16.16 at 10:22 AM.
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
Can a Solo Vee "fan" such as John or Johnny explain "why" there should be a competitive class for Solo Vees? AFAIK there is no other racing class in SCCA for these cars including Formula First. Therefore, unlike FF's and S2000's, there is no well defined rule set with proven performance characteristics. It seems that Solo Vees with more performance allowances would still be a "I want to spend a bunch of time and/or money" building a one off car that might be competitive for one year before it gets restricted.
I understand lots of guys are interested in building/developing unique cars (see DM/EM for a prime example) but why should the appeal of what is essentially a "spec" class be jeopardized? Especially since I really suspect the "market" of guys/gals interested in doing this with chassis and engines and rules that make a Kent engine FF look "state of the art" in comparison.
Thanks!
Dick
I've not seen a A-list driver in a limit of the rules Vee.
2.2seconds off the pace at Wilmington behind multiple national champions isn't cause for classing/allowance concerns.
Was there weather issues at Northern states. 5 seconds off the leaders is much more than some allowances would make up. A Vee running Street Mod times (and DM/EM running slower than Vee) suggest something is up.
When I saw the Vee allowances a couple years ago I considered getting a Vee. Decided against it because Vees aren't as cool as FF's.
"because Vees aren't as cool as FF's"..................................... Really
I'm hopeful the MAC and SEB, since they can't undo their initial mistake, at least table any discussion of further allowances until a built to the limit Vee with a top tier driver gives some meaningful data. Even given the impossibility of really achieving any real parity, just guessing and further screwing with one of the few consistently successful mod classes would be crazy.
Last edited by mwood; 08.06.14 at 11:44 PM.
Additional comments...
In the name of transparency, here is my reply to John’s original note :
His response :John,
Thank you for the congrats. Overall, it was a good weekend.
Thanks also for sending the proposal; I will post to ApexSpeed, RoadRaceAutoX, and the SCCA Solo C Modifed Facebook page.
As the for proposal itself, I found it very well written, but I will note that Scott Nardin did indeed trophy in CM with his Avon shod SoloVee at the 2014 Peru Match Tour : http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...20Results2.pdf That is, Scott proved that a SoloVee can trophy in a field of CM cars.
Sorry to see that you and Johnny withdrew your Nationals entry; we will miss you guys in Lincoln.
Take care,
Chris
Thanks for the reply Chris. I was not aware of Scott Nardin trophying, or even running his car lately. He is indeed an exceptional driver. He and I raced for many years in his Fmod days before he spent time with George Boland in Amod.
I've heard back from a member of the MAC already to say that any possibility of rules changes wouldn't happen till 2016 anyway, so that's a bit disappointing that the wheels of change would happen so slowly.
I can understand and appreciate all the FF owners having no interest in changing things up. For the life of me I do not understand how we got moved from Fmod to Cmod. Was it about increasing car numbers in Cmod? I don't even know who would have asked for it ..
Good luck in Lincoln. Sorry we decided to bail but we decided it would just be a big disappointment for us.
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
Instead of driving his fully prepped sololvee at Nationals, two time national champion Scott Nardin will again drive Jeff Blumenthal's FM. I guess that shows how competitive he feels his car would be in CM.
Or maybe he likes the FM better since many times they are faster than the fastest CM FF with a top tier driver?
Dick
CM85 - Not even close to top tier driver
after watching what the SEB did to Street Touring and Street Mod, I don't understand why we can't do something similar to CM.
CM - Formula fords, F1600, etc...
CMV - Formula V, formula first, etc...
that way no rule changes have to be made to make the Formula V "competitive" and like the all inclusive nature of autocross classification, this formula for CM fits..
So I guess I don't understand why street cars are given a unique class to run with some classification ID that looks like a cat walked across your keyboard. But when it comes to dealing with Modified, the effort stops and the SEB continues to try and mess with a proven racing formula instead of creating yet-another-class for a Formula V to run in.
Below is the Solo rule chane flow chart. It shows the process but leaves the timeline up to you to figure out. Basically if you want a change for next year you need to get the ball rolling in the spring, if you haven't seen your proposal by the June fastback it is starting to get too late in the year for inclusion in the next year.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/..._flowchart.pdf
Being a membership driven club if you want something you need to show up and build a viable case for what you want. When I was on a committee we often got letters to move a Hupmobile to a slower class. When no one on the committee had ever seen a Hupmobile at a national event the discussion was very short and went no where.
When you don't show up your chances of favorable allowances/classing goes down.
Last edited by ewcmr2; 08.07.14 at 11:55 AM.
Chris
I completely agree with your assessment. The creation of new classes seems rampant in the SCCA solo so why not another mod car class, especially given this long term issue (sort term for C mod guys but this Vee thing has been going on for probably a decade). I really don't like "diluting" CM with something other than FFs but that's where we are designated to run for some reason.
The irony of it is that if the SCCA did create a Vee class lots of new mod cars would come out. For some reason they can create a street tire/race tire class for front wheel, rear wheel, and AWD cars at seemingly the drop of a hat. It's almost like they would rather see only fendered street cars with 20 somethings show up. I won't pretend to know what all the class designations even are these days. When you work course you now have to call in cars with 4 or 5 letter class names. It's getting ridiculous. Why is creating a new mod car class so hard? It seems be be their answer for everything else.
In regards to other recent postings here, Scott Nardin IS an A list driver. You want to verify that? Put him in YOUR car. He was still over 2 seconds behind on a 41 second course. I will admit that the particular event referenced (Peru Match Tour 2014) had an unusually wide spread of times though for some reason. I wasn't there so I cannot say why so it seems a bit of an outlier to me.
In comparing Fmod to Cmod anyone would have to agree that Cmod is the faster class. The low pax numbers of Fmod were set only by 2 cars, winning each day of nationals by something like a second per day, so the Fmod pax seems out of line in that class. In Cmod the range of times is quite close in comparison to the spreads in Fmod. So it seems to me that this whole move to Cmod has done nothing but make it harder for the Vee guys, and maybe that was the intent .. to just make it hopeless.
And ewcmr2, that's a spiffy flow chart you linked to but it has no dates for when rules changes should be submitted every year. Vees have only been in Cmod for a season and a half. Should we have submitted proposals for rules changes after the first event?
The bottom line IMO is that there never any way that a Vee will hang with a FF in sweepers. A FF will kill it every time. We were "fortunate" at this year's Wilmington Tour because the course was largely offsets and slaloms with a few flowing sections that minimized the Vee's weaknesses. So I guess when I see the Vees as far behind at that event and rationalize that the course was as good as we're ever gonna see for a Vee it seems we need some concessions.
For reference, we ran with largely the same crowd at the Wilmington Match Tour which had a very long sweeper and we were totally buried there .. same drivers, car prep, tires, etc. And to top it off we ran about a thousand runs on Sunday morning and could get no better over all the runs.
Lastly, if you're commenting in this thread and haven't read the attached proposal you need to do so. These are not giant proposed changes, though it could be argued that the biggest one is in regards to a 50 lb weight reduction.
So to sum up, I hate screwing up what is a great class .. Cmod. It wasn't, I don't think any of our choices to be here.
BEST CASE .. why not everyone, including FF drivers petition for a new mod class and get us out of your hair. It IS our club and if there is a clear member directive it could happen and everyone would have their own sandbox where there is true parity.
Last edited by BreezyRacer; 08.08.14 at 10:43 AM. Reason: spelling
Exactly how many vees are out there running locally that don't come to nationals? I'm doubting that there will suddenly be a 20 car national field if Vees got their own class.
And also, at bare minimum moving to CM has significantly reduced some of the dimensional performance discrepancies that were forced by competing against 55" wide 800lb cars.
vee in CM
This is so frustrating, we have ask for a class of our own, but we keep hearing NO. We see all of these new classes and wonder how come we can't get our own class and stop making all you guys upset. We (speaking for my self) feel like there is a bias against us. Eveybody is afraid that we'll oil down the course or break something. There are a lot of Vee guys out there that won't participate because of all the rule changes that make the Vee so expensive to be some what competitive. And they know they will not be competitive even with the changes.
I wish we could get our own class, sense we have been so non GCR'd but the powers that be won't let us.
I really like driving my Vee even though I'm not competitive. I'm proud of my Son that helped me build my Lynx. We built it from the ground up. I don't think I'll drive anything else but this car.
It would be good if you all could help us become a class of our own, but the powers that be will not listen. Thanks for your understanding. Vernon #4 Darth Vee.
would suggest talking with your local club and start a regional class for the car. If you get enough cars to participate, then you have a great argument for making the class a national class.
I think that is how (in part) the new CAM class was created. In my region these cars used to run in our regional OSP (open street prepared) along with cars that now run in XP.
Pax is about the best driver in the best car, maximum potential for the class. It is not about what is typical for the class. FM is faster than CM, look at results, it is rare for CM to straight time FM.
According to my SEB rep it was the Vee drivers that wanted out of FM.
The paragraph before the flowchart link laid out the timeline. After a year in the class you should have enough data to support your request.
+1 on the fun building a car with a kid!
The problem with getting a class of your own is numbers... Like Chris said if you build a popular class locally/regionally and get those cars to national events and show the class is gaining popularity you have a chance. At Tours and Pros they will add "local" classes. San Diego has had "Index Street" and El Toro "CST, CSM".
Unfortunately 2 cars showing up at nationals doesn't have much pull with the rule makers.
I don't believe that we would see a 20 car field first year either but a 12 car field would be very doable for the first year .. then onwards and upwards from there. When F mod was created it done via a provisional class and at the time there was a lot of doubt about cars coming out. However it has taken off and now usually boasts the largest numbers of any of the mod car classes at nationals. It takes time to get these things going.
The SCCA created solo vees though and it should provide a place to run. We have that now in Cmod but at some cost of consternation amongst the members of whatever class the car is placed in. A provisional class is a much better way than a bunch of regions having a one car class. Really you take any mod car class and when you look at the numbers by region there are usually only 1 or 2 cars in a region. No region will create a class for 1 or 2 cars.
The Solo Vee was created in response to member request. The car has always been placed in a class that rulesmakers thought it would be most competitive. As with many stock (now street) category cars, sometimes a competitive class for a particular car doesn't exist within the classing structure.The SCCA created solo vees though and it should provide a place to run.
If members want to have a class created for Solo Vees, then the provisional class idea as mentioned previously should be requested. Details would have to be worked out.
Last edited by Jim Garry; 08.08.14 at 4:06 PM. Reason: grammar
Jim
I wish I understood everything I know.
To correct one idea expressed: SCCA is NOT looking to add new Solo classes. The rampant expansion of past years has led us to a point where class consolidation is more top of mind. Look at the current proposal to merge STS and STC as an example. Mod classes, it could be argued, are ripe to be part of that consolidation and the last candidate for expansion.
Bottom line, this is not an environment where "build it and they will come" is going to get support. If the case is going to be made for a standalone class for Solo Vees, it is going to have to be founded on some concrete expression of interest, i.e. cars coming out and running. I don't know that there are, or could be, enough Solo Vees to make that case.
The catch 22 is that it is hard to get numbers out when there's agreement (with good reason) among the Vee folks that the car is not competitive. Who wants to come out and get smoked? But, CM is currently one of the few Mod classes that has consistent numbers and balanced competition (among the core FF). So, I can't see the MAC/SEB screwing around with that by attempting to throw guesses at allowances at the class to help a very small number of Vees achieve something closer to "parity"...which will be very course dependent and just further muddy the waters.
Just my dos centavos.
Last edited by mwood; 08.08.14 at 10:16 PM.
I propose that SoloVees, Formula First, Formula Vee, Legends, Dwarfs, and G Prepared be combined into one supplemental class. It will be called UWC for uncompetitive weird crap. Maybe Spec Wrecker Fords would like to be included, too.
The playing field between car types would be equalized using the Supplemental UWC indeX, because the class just SUX.
[Foghorn Leghorn Voice]That's a joke, son. I say, that's a joke.[/Foghorn Leghorn Voice]
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