Atlantic Championship Series news

[Michael Rand]

In response to a few phone calls regarding the announced registration and entry fees, one explanation seems needed.
That being the question about entry fees, specifically.
The explanation is simple math really.
Consider it takes $X to put on a race series weekend.
Two series costs $X times 2 less a touch for sharing staff expenses.
Three series costs $X times at minimum 2.75 but with added expense for dedicated staff. Every added minute of track time comes at a substsantial cost these days, to say nothing of the additional Participant Accident coverage, purse [to be announced very soon, but don't get all excited, every race winner will receive more than the entry fee but no one is going to pay for their weekend sport through purse alone], trophies etc.
So if there are 30 cars sharing the burden, do the math.
If there are 60 cars for 2 series, do the math.
But for this new initiative with expected entry levels far short of 30 cars, or even 25 cars, or possibly even 20 cars, that number goes up considerably on a per car basis.
Simple math.
One thing we, the organizers and administrators, will say right now, if and when we ever see 25 Atlantic cars we will rebate some of each entry fee to all entrants.
The registration fee is a normal expense for virtually any series beyond Club Racing, and aside from guaranteeing a permanet number and participation in the points championship will also include the drivers Pro Racing License at no additional fee which we require for 2012.
I hope this helps explain why the Atlantic entry fees are set where they are and maybe encourage all runners to get their friends back on track as well !

[aspenripper]

sounds reasonable..
Thanks Mike

[DB4 Tim]

In response to a few phone calls regarding the announced registration and entry fees, one explanation seems needed.
That being the question about entry fees, specifically.
The explanation is simple math really.
Consider it takes $X to put on a race series weekend.
Two series costs $X times 2 less a touch for sharing staff expenses.
Three series costs $X times at minimum 2.75 but with added expense for dedicated staff. Every added minute of track time comes at a substsantial cost these days, to say nothing of the additional Participant Accident coverage, purse [to be announced very soon, but don't get all excited, every race winner will receive more than the entry fee but no one is going to pay for their weekend sport through purse alone], trophies etc.
So if there are 30 cars sharing the burden, do the math.
If there are 60 cars for 2 series, do the math.
But for this new initiative with expected entry levels far short of 30 cars, or even 25 cars, or possibly even 20 cars, that number goes up considerably on a per car basis.
Simple math.
One thing we, the organizers and administrators, will say right now, if and when we ever see 25 Atlantic cars we will rebate some of each entry fee to all entrants.
The registration fee is a normal expense for virtually any series beyond Club Racing, and aside from guaranteeing a permanet number and participation in the points championship will also include the drivers Pro Racing License at no additional fee which we require for 2012.
I hope this helps explain why the Atlantic entry fees are set where they are and maybe encourage all runners to get their friends back on track as well !

I truly understand the cost of doing business...IMO that entry fee will stop many form entering, very difficult time to start or resurrect a series...also when finances are tight even more difficult to make that much entry and registration ....JUST IMO...many will say if you cannot afford the entry then you cannot afford to race....I do not agree with this view.

I know I am only one...however I do need to voice my opinion...thanks

[Purple Frog]

I think Rand is saying, between the lines...
The more the guaranteed entries, the lower the entry fee...

[Rennie Clayton]

I haven't been informed of the fees, but part of the issue here is undoubtedly the limited scope of the series schedule as well. Bit of a chicken and egg scenario, unfortunately. Only 3 weekends in play, which makes it more exploratory than dedicated for the pro teams, and if it ratchets up the cost for privateers too much then we'll end up in another in a long line of well-intentioned, but ultimately flawed efforts.


Cheers,
Rennie

[DB4 Tim]

Tough to tell the racers in hopes of getting the entries........and not in a bad way I know I am one in my views, the racer is still paying for all the costs ...trying to build a series is a two way street..sorry just the way I see it...I was so excited and went to the site....

I think Rand is saying, between the lines...
The more the guaranteed entries, the lower the entry fee...

[starkejt]

People are seriously not going to race their atlantics over a couple hundred bucks difference on the entry fee?

[DB4 Tim]

We are not talking couple of hundred bucks here, joining ...registration... weekend of racing...total for all

People are seriously not going to race their atlantics over a couple hundred bucks difference on the entry fee?

[starkejt]

I thought the atlantic entry was $1250 for a double. F2000 is I think $995. $255 difference, and $995 doesn't seem to hurt the F2000 numbers.

[DB4 Tim]

.and how much to join the club, for how many races BTW F2000 is a viable ...series...Atlantic's are trying to get their, not really comparable IMO.

I thought the Atlantic entry was $1250 for a double. F2000 is I think $995. $255 difference, and $995 doesn't seem to hurt the F2000 numbers.

[starkejt]

I don't know. Just always showed up at the track and paid $995.

I guess what surprises me is that someone who races a Formula Atlantic competitively would balk at any dollar amount that is represented by 3 digits prior to the decimal.

[DB4 Tim]

.and it is OK if I see it the way I do, as I stated IMO ...

I don't know. Just always showed up at the track and paid $995.

I guess what surprises me is that someone who races a Formula Atlantic competitively would balk at any dollar amount that is represented by 3 digits prior to the decimal.

[starkejt]

Of course. I just said that it surprised me. Not that you are wrong.

[DB4 Tim]

Just because I own and drive an FA, does not mean I have unlimited resources.
I hope they make their numbers and keep it sustainable.
It is a dream for all of us....AND I truly want it to be successful.

[starkejt]

Just because I own and drive an FA, does not mean I have unlimited resources.

Well, the travel from NM would be a b1tch, anyways!

[DB4 Tim]

....and one I was will to make...comes down to cost, total cost of a race.

[Rennie Clayton]

If those are the fees, they don't seem out of line to me.

I guess what surprises me is that someone who races a Formula Atlantic competitively would balk at any dollar amount that is represented by 3 digits prior to the decimal.

What's a comma in the price tag between friends, amirite???


Cheers,
Rennie

[DB4 Tim]

Not out of line for an established PRO series.
I know I am alone on this...but 900 or 2000 more is a bit much at the end of the day/weekend...IMO

[starkejt]

What's a comma in the price tag between friends, amirite???


Cheers,
Rennie

What I meant was just that I was surprised to hear that Atlantic guys (more specifically the "runoffs" type crowd) would be turned off by an entry fee that was a couple hundred dollars higher than the other series. Not that lighting cigars with Benjis is a prereq for owning an FA.

[tonyave]

I think this series is a great deal. I know firsthand how Internet message board negativity can harm things, so I wanted to weigh in on the positive side. Virtually all road racing is back gate funded these days including grand am and alms. People just don't know it, but go do it if you want to find out how much you have to pay to be a pro.

The bottom line, and it's not always easy to hear, is this; if your car doesn't regularly have whatever crowd is watching you on its feet occasionally, don't expect anybody else to pay for your racing. Or pay to watch you for that matter.

Nothing personal at all. Just MO.

Tony

[Rennie Clayton]

What I meant was just that I was surprised to hear that Atlantic guys (more specifically the "runoffs" type crowd) would be turned off by an entry fee that was a couple hundred dollars higher than the other series. Not that lighting cigars with Benjis is a prereq for owning an FA.

They see me rollin'. They hatin'.

[HazelNut]

it's WELL ESTABLISHED that I'm one of the cheapest guys in the paddock (ok aside from Rand, he's the king of cheap). My aero package for years was "whatever I could dig out of the big teams garbage cans that could be fixed with home depot squirty foam, racers tape and those really snazzy series sponsor stickers they give away"


and even I don't even bitch about the entry fees being too high

also, lets not forget you get some value for your money because you get a run group with a single class of cars. Club is cheaper, but the mixed bag kluge of klasses SUCKS and i feel that even with the cost "savings" it's not worth doing as there is zero value for your $ if you really want to go racing.

after my last club race I vowed not to go back even if it was "cheap".

[Tom Valet]

also, lets not forget you get some value for your money because you get a run group with a single class of cars. Club is cheaper, but the mixed bag kluge of klasses SUCKS and i feel that even with the cost "savings" it's not worth doing as there is zero value for your $ if you really want to go racing.

after my last club race I vowed not to go back even if it was "cheap".

This is really the point right here. For Club racing (in which I include the three Pro Series) your fixed costs which are 90% of the budget are going to be the same regardless of whether you race regional or national or anywhere else, but in most cases you are going to be on the track with everything under the sun including FVs in some regions, and maybe two or three other FAs will show up and if you're lucky you two will find each other on the track, and maybe you will get to race each other for a lap or two before someone in an F-whatever gets in the way.

Whereas in the Pro series, for what in reality is only a small increase in the overall budget you get to drive your car as it was designed to be driven, unimpeded by rolling chicanes, against other drivers in the same class who will really give you a run for your money.

Add to this the overall atmosphere of the whole weekend which is a real thing but hard to put into words. What you really need to do is come out for one of these events and see for yourself. Once you have, there will be no more discussion about the entry fees, you will think they are cheap for what you are getting for your money.

[starkejt]

They see me rollin'. They hatin'.

I bomb atomically. Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be dropping these mockeries. Lyrically perform armed robbery. Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me.

[Ralph Z.]

I agree with Tom. We did one FF pro race this year and it was amazing. You walk away at the end of the weekend feeling it was a tremendous value. (OK, Rand, don't increase the entry just because I said that.)

I can spend my money trying to race at the club level and get really frustrated or go the pro series for just a little more money.

Value is in the eye of the beholder and right now there are well over 75 racers in the F2000 series and F1600 series who are truly enjoying the benefits. If you are uncertain about the value, leave your car and rig at home, drive or fly to one of the pro races and see for yourself. I'm certain that your next trip will include the rig.

Ralph Z

[F1000champ]

OK, I'm not in the FA contingency, but the fees for this new series are appropriate. If you want to run in a pro series, it costs a little more, but these fees are well, in line with what they should be. IMO. Great work Mike!

[nulrich]

Keep in mind you get a LOT more track time at one of these events, usually about 3 hours per weekend, not including testing. That works out to less than $7/min, and you're running only with other Atlantics instead of a bunch of slower cars paying little attention to their mirrors.

If you want a pro Atlantic series you need to step up and support the three events in 2012. The series is taking a big risk (financial and otherwise) already, and they don't have a sugar daddy covering any shortfall. Or if they do he's very well disguised!

Nathan

[Rick Ross]

I am pretty much the Purple Frog of the FA community. I do 90% of my maintenance and repairs, prep the car, set it up, and tow it to the races in a 24' trailer. At the track I usually have a friend to help out, and I do my own engineering and data analysis. I never buy more than one set of tires for a weekend, even a double race event. It would be hard to find anyone who races an Atlantic for much less than I do.

That said, I do not think that the entry fees for the Rand Pro Series are unreasonable, and I plan to show up for at least one of his races if I can get the car back together. In the context of the total costs of a race weekend (including all the fixed costs), I personally do not feel that the Pro entry fees are excessive. The real challenge with this series will be getting the car count up to reasonable levels. If they can get 20 Atlantics out there in a dedicated run group I do not think that any of the participants will be complaining about entry fees.

And as Tony pointed out, whether you put a "club" or "pro" label on a series, it is all paid for by the drivers, one way or another. The higher entry fees of the "pro" series are essentially a fee that the drivers are willing to pay for single-class run groups. Time will tell if there are enough Atlantic owners that are willing to pay for this benefit.

[DB4 Tim]

I have said this before and a bit disagreed with me.....however when I figure race cost I must figure in the cost of getting there....everyone has said before it does not matter it is not part of it....well when you live where I do it is real. Getting to Fontana is 765 miles I can do that in one day, I pull by myself. That is the very edge of my stamina it is 15.5 hours, and damn near takes a day to recover. Any Pro race from NM will be two to 2.5 day pull...and back the same way...that is a cost that I must take into consideration. Days off from work it all goes into the thought process.

When I say the cost of going to a pro race is to high that is because I take all into account.
If lived back east or even Midwest it would be considerably cheaper for me.

I look at Steve O'Hara and he has one hell of a pull to get to them.

[Rick Ross]

Tim,

I hear you....if I lived in NM I would probably not even consider towing to the east coast for one of these races, or any other race for that matter. For me the entry fees would be irrelevant in that case.....that is just too far to tow!

You should limit yourself to nearby tracks.....say within 1000 miles of your home.

[DB4 Tim]

I do ...Vegas and Fontana...the closest...

I do hope everyone understands I want this series to go and go big...big enough to take it to Fontana or any Left coast track.

Hell Phoenix would be GREAT

[Charles Warner]

When I say the cost of going to a pro race is to high that is because I take all into account.

To not do so would be pretty stupid, IMO.

[glenn cooper]

I bomb atomically. Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be dropping these mockeries. Lyrically perform armed robbery. Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me.

Damn Josh, As an elder caucasian statesman, I have no idea if the prose you so eloquently laid out is original or not.

If they are your's - damn, just dayyyyyyyyyyyyyum!
(You'd be a shoo-in for the next skinny white rapper. It's time...)

GC

[starkejt]

Damn Josh, As an elder caucasian statesman, I have no idea if the prose you so eloquently laid out is original or not.

If they are your's - damn, just dayyyyyyyyyyyyyum!

GC

LMAO, those are Wu-Tang lyrics. Inspectah Deck IIRC.

[jim morgan]

Nut,

Cheap, How about that "motel" room in Cleveland?

[VehDyn]

LMAO, those are Wu-Tang lyrics. Inspectah Deck IIRC.

Wu-tang, eh? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

[starkejt]

No. 15 years ago, yes.

[HazelNut]

Nut,

Cheap, How about that "motel" room in Cleveland?

you need new material jim

[Zebra]

If you live in New Mexico and want to run In the series I think you should factor in leaving the car on East Coast with a hungry fellow race nut that will help with tow and prep.

We NEED to support the series with car count. But I suspect all we have in the Atlantic series is a bunch of guys who like to say they "Race" and hey "look at my race car in the garage" but never actually race. If you own a $50,000.00 item that has absolutely NO VALUE other than racing and you don't race it then you are a FOOL. STOP WITH THE EXCUSES AND COME RACING otherwise sign off of apex speed and sign up for the " Apex Flower Arranging Forum "

[DB4 Tim]

yea ok there is more to life then what you think are excuses

If you live in New Mexico and want to run In the series I think you should factor in leaving the car on East Coast with a hungry fellow race nut that will help with tow and prep.

We NEED to support the series with car count. But I suspect all we have in the Atlantic series is a bunch of guys who like to say they "Race" and hey "look at my race car in the garage" but never actually race. If you own a $50,000.00 item that has absolutely NO VALUE other than racing and you don't race it then you are a FOOL. STOP WITH THE EXCUSES AND COME RACING otherwise sign off of apex speed and sign up for the " Apex Flower Arranging Forum "