New FA Pro Series

[quartzracer]

Hey Tony, How about some feedback on the [FONT=Monaco]XFR[/FONT]. The designer (Greg Sorrentino) glows when he talks about you being at the wheel during its development!

Eric

[KevinFirlein]

a problem with a spec RPM is it assumes everyone is running the same engine like they were in the old atlantic series where they ran to a 9800 then I think a 9500 rpm mark. We dont have that now. we have motors all over the map with power bands to match.

ande yes Rennies car would fit nicely in my trailer

[tonyave]

Fun times!!! I was pretty broke back then, so i learned how to sell my services as a test driver. Thats was a good time in FA, you could build your own cars etc. We actually had it running very well and had the runoffs won but for a ground wire connection early in the race. When i think about how hard i drove, and sleeping in cold trailers (that leaked) and how relentless i was about making it in this business, it only makes me less patient with guys more concerned with not having that last 5 hp instead of how to extract every last bit out of what you have. Thinking about that even now while sitting in my 25000 sq ft shop full of equipment and race cars......seems like a lifetime ago...

[tonyave]

Kevin,
As I stated earlier, cant be all things to all people. I would leave it where it was pre- sir table. 1600s or the new Mazda engine. I was just pointing out a cheaper way to extend engine life while maintaining easy tech.

Tony

[KevinFirlein]

Tony I mentioned doing away with table E except 'pro spec' 2.3 in the 016a back in post 221 even though I dont really agree with doing it. Problem is there are prime cars this series needs to draw that run table e motors. I wondered if anyone had gaged their interest level in running or not.

I do think the rev limit should be left to the driver.

[tonyave]

Fair enough. Everyone who knows me knows my disdain for spec'ing or limiting anything that doesn't absolutely need to be in a top level series. I like the idea of hi revving screamers, just don't expect them to run long.

What everyone should be doing is getting as many cars to run this summer as possible, and don't fall into the "I would come and race if....." BS. Cause the serious guys are working in their garage while the pretenders are posting away. (except for me sometimes, fortunately I have guys to do most of that now...). I would love to come and do this, and it looks like my schedule will allow it.....now to find a car without fenders around here somewhere...

[HazelNut]

seriously? we're months away from the first wheel turning and you guys are already complaining and over-thinking it all.


put your helmet on, strap in, shut up, and just drive the f*cking thing.

[quartzracer]

Tony,

How about an XFR? Seems like a logical choice

[nulrich]

seriously? we're months away from the first wheel turning and you guys are already complaining and over-thinking it all.

Hey! Who's complaining? (I may be over-thinking, but that's normal.) I think this has been one of the least contentious threads, especially for it's length, on Apex. I've learned a lot. No one is forcing you to read it!

put your helmet on, strap in, shut up, and just drive the f*cking thing.

Easy for you to say, you're going to be driving a car...what about us poor engineers who have to stand by and watch? Let us have our fun, too.

Can't wait for the new season!

Nathan

[supersonicus]

The reason Atlantic cars died is because there are no men anymore, wife allows the weenie husband 4 hours a weekend which equates to a round of golf then back to be hen pecked.

Sad but kinda true. Couldn't help but think of scene from a movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7SuY3T_U6c

[tonyave]

Hey Quartz,
I would give that thing a run or two again.
Tony

[nulrich]

The key to engine longevity is to keep its specific output to a maximum of about 125 hp/L. Ever wonder how a Zetec can run 10,000 race miles with dirt cheap internals? Its specific output is only about 80 hp/L. In contrast, a 1600 at 270 hp is getting ~170 hp/L, so its TBO is "Runoffs week".

Information like this is exactly what makes this thread so valuable, at least to me.

It seems that engine cost can be significantly reduced by introducing larger engines at a limited power output. However, I think the only way it could work is with sealed engines. There is a model for this with the Zetec in FC and the FIT in FF, and perhaps the same approach could be used.

Adjust the SIR sizes to limit horsepower/torque equally for all "open" engines. It sounds like some fine tuning (maybe that's charitable) is necessary for the existing sizes in Table E, but the F1600/F2000 series has proven they can do that quickly and equitably. If someone wants to spend the time and money to fully develop an engine with an SIR, have at it, but they will have to deal with the fragility of the resulting engine.

In the meantime, approve one or more controlled engines, such as the 2.3 Duratec and K20, with spec ECUs and IIRs and strict restrictions on intakes, exhaust, and internals. For the pro series at least they should be sealed, with each potential engine approved prior to running and the developing organization (HPD, Cosworth, Quicksilver, etc) guaranteeing the power output. The target horsepower for those engines should be slightly less than the best power available from the open engines.

If someone wants the absolute best power available, or just enjoys developing engines, the open engines allow that.

Everyone who cares mostly about initial and running cost chooses one of the sealed engines.

Of course, the devil is in the details, but is there anything wrong with this basic approach?

Nathan

[andyllc]

I would love to have an Atlantic. I have tested them and they are unbelievable. Pretty much everyone accepts that they are expensive to buy and maintain (if going for the pointy end of the grid, let's be real). While, I would love a long life motor in Atlantic's to lower the operating expense, do you think it would kill the class? It seems to me that the guys that like FA enjoy being able to tinker, update, and out-do one another. Would the participants be turned off if there was all of a sudden a spec motor? (I don't believe you could have a spec motor in Atlantics plus all of the open choices as well). To me, it seems similar to making CSR a spec engine class and I think that would just kill it.
Even if the class went to a spec motor, would more people actually step up and join the class? I would like to but in reality it would be a decade of saving at least for me to buy a current/competitive car.
I love the class, what I told people growing up is that if I could make a living at it, I would want to race Atlantics over ANY other car, that is how crazed I have always
So I think this talk is...nice? maybe? about different ideas and such, but I think if everyone is wanting to get prices down, I just don't know the motor would be the best way. I think that it will end up hurting the size of the class too much. I don't have the magic answer so unfortunately I can't help the conversation along, I just don't think it is real to think that it will successfully go to a spec engine class.

Another thing to think about in regards to new chassis and what not. A lot of people mentioned F3 but about about the Renault 3.5 cars or first gen GP2 cars? Does anyone know enough about those to know if they could somehow work in the FA class?

[KevinFirlein]

in theory no Nathan in reality one major one...getting the bigger motors to actually fit in the standard issue original FA chassis. AFAIK the 2.3 only fits in the 016a. As you can imagine Ralt and older Swift owners start to develope a nervous twitch above the right eye when anyone mentions " it can be done but we need to trim the tunnels a bit, or add a notch to your engine cover". The Mazda 12a actually does everything needed from a life point of view. It does require some serious rear end reworking as the centerline is different then the toyota but the deal breaker for most was that since the housing was round and not your stand retangular block the tunnels needed to have bubble added on both sides. Even if in reality this made only a small difference it turned most people off.

[Stan Clayton]

Information like this is exactly what makes this thread so valuable, at least to me.

It seems that engine cost can be significantly reduced by introducing larger engines at a limited power output. However, I think the only way it could work is with sealed engines. There is a model for this with the Zetec in FC and the FIT in FF, and perhaps the same approach could be used.

Adjust the SIR sizes to limit horsepower/torque equally for all "open" engines. It sounds like some fine tuning (maybe that's charitable) is necessary for the existing sizes in Table E, but the F1600/F2000 series has proven they can do that quickly and equitably. If someone wants to spend the time and money to fully develop an engine with an SIR, have at it, but they will have to deal with the fragility of the resulting engine.

In the meantime, approve one or more controlled engines, such as the 2.3 Duratec and K20, with spec ECUs and IIRs and strict restrictions on intakes, exhaust, and internals. For the pro series at least they should be sealed, with each potential engine approved prior to running and the developing organization (HPD, Cosworth, Quicksilver, etc) guaranteeing the power output. The target horsepower for those engines should be slightly less than the best power available from the open engines.

If someone wants the absolute best power available, or just enjoys developing engines, the open engines allow that.

Everyone who cares mostly about initial and running cost chooses one of the sealed engines.

Of course, the devil is in the details, but is there anything wrong with this basic approach?

Nathan

You're correct...the devil is in the details. So of course there are more factors to making engines lasting than just specific output. Mean piston velocity is another primary limiting factor. In general the fatigue life of conventional cast pistons begins to drop off dramatically above 20 mps, which happens to coincide with an RPM of 6800 for the Zetec in FC. Hypereutectic pistons can withstand about 22 mps, and quality forged pieces can go to 24-26 mps. FWIW, a Toyota 4age engine (FA 1600) at 10,000 RPM has a mean piston velocity of 25.7 mps. At 10,000 RPM its mpv is 27.7 mps and its mtbf may be only a couple of hours of run time.

But back to specific output. Le Mans restricts P1 cars' petrol engines to about 650 hp from a maximum displacement of 6L. That's only ~110 hp/L. Moreover, they require engine suppliers to warranty their engines for 40 hours of practice, qualifying and racing (50 hours in 2013). The smallest P1 engine displacement I've heard of is the Acura at 4.2L, and they limit their output to a claimed 620 hp...or right at 150 hp/L. That's a little off the top end of my suggested specific power, but let's keep in mind that it's not a converted street car engine...it's a cost-is-no-object racing engine, so I am confident they can make the number.

Sealing engines from a single supplier can work, but it's not needed and the FA guys will not agree to it. The unrestricted 1600 is the FA baseline engine...that's what 90% of the cars have in them. Other, larger displacement what I call 'economy engines' need to match that baseline to be acceptable. The <10:1 2L engine is an almost perfect match to the unrestricted 1600...which is why only one person has built one. Matt Miller used one to win CSR in 2009. He qualified 4th; posted the 4th fastest race lap, and won with a good start and then not making any mistakes. BTW, Matt told me he ran that engine about 30 hours before having it torn down for a freshening. His engine builder said it looked perfect, so they buttoned it back up and he won the Runoffs with it.

I say only one person has built one because the guys trying them discovered that the <9:1 2.5L had a slight advantage. I agree that it needs a restrictor, but IMO the CRB over-reacted and choked it down to too low an output to be competitive. Racers being racers, they simply won't accept being relegated by the rules to 'also ran' status.

Anyway, while there's room IMO for sealed engines, I don't think that needs to be the only approach. Control the CR and displacement, and select the correct restrictor and I am confident we can have that elusive ideal of fast, reliable AND cheap.

[supersonicus]

The <10:1 2L engine is an almost perfect match to the unrestricted 1600...which is why only one person has built one. Matt Miller used one to win CSR in 2009. He qualified 4th; posted the 4th fastest race lap, and won with a good start and then not making any mistakes. BTW, Matt told me he ran that engine about 30 hours before having it torn down for a freshening. His engine builder said it looked perfect, so they buttoned it back up and he won the Runoffs with it.

That motor was really sweet. In its early development we put a ton of miles on it with stock pistons (just cut down to meet the compression ceiling), stock rods and stock crank. Eventually we swapped out the the pistons and rods for something more efficient, but the original stock cast crank is in the motor today (with a Runoffs 2nd place in 2010 and June Sprints win this year). The only reason we ran race fuel was to get a blend without oxygen. Made great noise too. Ahhh memories...