New FA Pro Series

[bill gillespie]

Bill,

Doesn't matter whether we are talking about F1 or kid karts or anything in between it's always about money as much as talent. I've been involved in motorsports for 45 years and I've never seen anyone come up with a way to prevent someone from spending whatever they want to win.
I've been on both ends of the boat as far as relative resources so I am not going to criticize the "haves". Our Atlantic effort was one of the lowest budget operations in the paddock. We had no spares, never tested away from the actual pre race practices and always ran practice on used tires but we prepared the car very carefully and stayed off the fences. We didn't expect to beat the Players squad with their special motors, offset suspension setups for ovals, team of engineers and shock dyno in the rig etc. It wasn't a straight fight but it was still fun to push them to the limit and sometime over the limit.
In my karting championship years of the late 70s we had way more resources than most with piles of engines and chassis used only for races and others for practice so the shoe was on the other foot.
With so many makes and models of Atlantics around to draw from there is just no way to equalize the performance so my only advice to the organizers would be to reward entrants for more than just finishing at the front. Spread the prize money around and devote some of it to accomplishments other than final finishing position. Portions can be allocated to best qualifier and finisher with certain car characteristics such as 1.6L motors, flat bottom chassis, bias ply tires... you get the idea. Most positions gained, fastest race lap, best looking crew ( this would have gone to Chad McQueen in my era as he always brought a half dozen Hawaiian Tropic swimsuit models as his crew) and any other distinction the participants support.
In 1993 the Pro series did one thing that really helped us stay involved... they put more than half the total prize money into a points fund rather than the more common method of all prize money based on finishing positon with the top finishers taking the vast majority. For my program consistently finishing in the top 5 but rarely having a chance to win the points fund deal was a huge source of financial support and we ended up with over $150K from the 11 races I ran in 1993.
I hope the program can be pulled together even if it only and east coast schedule.
It's a shame to see a class with such great history fading away.
Steve O'Hara

Hey Steve,,,,,thanks for your well considersd post....Hey Mike, food for thought.

[Rick Ross]

With so many makes and models of Atlantics around to draw from there is just no way to equalize the performance so my only advice to the organizers would be to reward entrants for more than just finishing at the front. Spread the prize money around and devote some of it to accomplishments other than final finishing position. Portions can be allocated to best qualifier and finisher with certain car characteristics such as 1.6L motors, flat bottom chassis, bias ply tires... you get the idea. Most positions gained, fastest race lap, best looking crew ( this would have gone to Chad McQueen in my era as he always brought a half dozen Hawaiian Tropic swimsuit models as his crew) and any other distinction the participants support.
In 1993 the Pro series did one thing that really helped us stay involved... they put more than half the total prize money into a points fund rather than the more common method of all prize money based on finishing positon with the top finishers taking the vast majority. For my program consistently finishing in the top 5 but rarely having a chance to win the points fund deal was a huge source of financial support and we ended up with over $150K from the 11 races I ran in 1993.

Hi Steve,

Hope you are well. Given the wide variations present among Atlantic chassis' and engines, I think that your points above have some real merit. I hope that Mike Rand will consider incorporating some of these ideas into his series.

[George Main]

Hey Rick,

Claude did , in fact, take t1 flat on Yokes.....I was sitting at the entrance and couldn't believe my ears. Denis Eade saw the computer trace and said there was no sneaky left foot brake either.

Claude finally barrel rolled the car on the T1 exit......looked like cold tires on a restart. I'm not sure anyone else got it flat at that time........my first RT40 was his, and it came with phenomenal data from Tony Cicale, etc.....,.

Go get em'
Bill

Bob Lobenberg and me stood with the huge crowd of people to watch Claude go flat at turn 1 at this race. Claude was blowing out Jacques by leading and entering 1 with Jacques just coming out under the bridge in eleven.
Claude's car started developing an understeer problem which got worse over the next five laps, though he never lifted, not even once. Each lap he hit the outside curb harder and harder each lap as he forced the car though the corner. Each lap people were commenting that he had to lift as the car was getting worse...nope, flat out again... on the third lap of this, he hit the curb hard, the car ended up on top of the curb, wiggled and he almost chucked it away.
As he came up for the next time through one, people were saying " oh, he's got to lift, ain't no way he's going flat now.....NOPE, wrong again.... this time the wiggled big time on top of the curb and again almost threw it away.....
The fifth time he lost it, though flat out again......
Bob L. and me picked him up in our golf cart, Bob was driving away from the crowd and looked at Claude.... " Bubbles (Bob's nickname for him) what in the hell were you thinking? You got a half lap lead and you can't slow down? Why did you go flat when the car wasn't working any more?
Claude in his french/english accent.... " But Bob, I always go flat......"

BTW, Greg Ray with Mike Cannon as crew chief also flatted (though on Goodyears), every lap at this corner at the Runoffs in Atlanta, some five seconds faster than the next closest competitor....
During one lunch break, they took the wings down and left the car for every one to see while they had lunch... the next session was a riot, with several cars running flat wings and trying to take turn 1 flat....about 3 or 4 red flags due to cars off at one...LOL.

[George Main]

a stock 008 is slower then a 40/41 or 14a.prolly slower then a proper DB4 for that matter. but it all assumes equal prep and drivers. and since such things dont exist just so show up an race.

Yep, I worked with Micheal David, who was the last remaining RT41 in the year they switched to the 008. Micheal had to run a .5" wood plank on the bottom of the car. Even with the wood plank, the car was still faster. Then they made us run, after a couple of races, a 16 degree rear wing and .5" rear wicker, nothing less..... that slowed us enough to no longer run in the front......

[George Main]

Now we might see how really fast a Ralt 41 can be.

Patrick Carpentier/Jeret Schroeder in the Jim Griffith redesigned RT41....we had the most laps led, and shattered JV' senior's atlantic records for poles, races won, track records, laps lead... that's how fast a RT41 can be.

[bill gillespie]

Patrick Carpentier/Jeret Schroeder in the Jim Griffith redesigned RT41....we led every lap of the whole season, and shattered JV' senior's atlantic records for poles, races won, track records, laps lead... that's how fast a RT41 can be.

George,

Thanks for echoing/ confirming everything I have ever thought about the tweaked RT41.

Regards,
Bill

[Beartrax]

( this would have gone to Chad McQueen in my era as he always brought a half dozen Hawaiian Tropic swimsuit models as his crew)

I hope the Fat Boys consider adding something like this to their program....

It may be a challenge to have the ladies in bikinis in October at Watkins Glen...

[supersonicus]

Patrick Carpentier/Jeret Schroeder in the Jim Griffith redesigned RT41....we led every lap of the whole season, and shattered JV' senior's atlantic records for poles, races won, track records, laps lead... that's how fast a RT41 can be.

What year was that?

[Rick Ross]

Patrick Carpentier/Jeret Schroeder in the Jim Griffith redesigned RT41....we led every lap of the whole season, and shattered JV' senior's atlantic records for poles, races won, track records, laps lead... that's how fast a RT41 can be.

Hi George,

Any idea what ever happened to the Griffith-Ralts? I know that these cars used some unique parts, such as rockers, etc.

[bill gillespie]

Hi George,

Any idea what ever happened to the Griffith-Ralts? I know that these cars used some unique parts, such as rockers, etc.

Rick,
I still know where the last one is.....

[Steve O'Hara]

Patrick C. won 9 of 12 races and 8 in a row in 1996.
The fields were strong that year so it was no cherry picking.
Tagliani, Lee Bentham, Lazzaro, Montgomery, Schroeder and others I can't remember.
I unretired to do a last minute one off in the final race at Laguna Seca in the Oppliger Motorsports Ralt RT41... it was the best chassis I ever drove and it was far from sorted out as it had been driven all season by a driver who was not cabable of pushing the car. It was such an easy car to drive.... very secure feel to the car at all speeds.
Steve O'Hara

[nulrich]

The RT-41 is a pretty car. It's interesting to compare the nose design with the new Dallara F312, which is probably the closest modern car in terms of power, weight, downforce, and so on. I think the RT-41 was designed right around the time Benetton introduced their raised nose, and right before a raised nose became standard in F1.

It looks like the nose shape of the RT-41 is designed primarily to reduce drag rather than feed the undertray or improve the efficiency of the front wing. Of course, the aero design of cars with tunnels is different from flat bottom or "plank" cars like modern F1 or F3 cars. Does anyone know the history of the aerodynamic development of the car?

Nathan

[KevinFirlein]

to be fair, the raised nose on the rt41 was only there becasue Brian robertson, the NA importer , wanted the car to look like the benneton so he showed up to Montreal with one on his car. eventually most followed suit. If nothing else it did make the car look better.

As with FC wings there are now umpteen different versions of front wings ' that are the best in the country'. I know which I like the best of the 4 I've tried but that only means that it is what works best with the rest of the way I run the car.

[DB4 Tim]

to be fair, the raised nose on the rt41 was only there becasue Brian robertson, the NA importer , wanted the car to look like the benneton so he showed up to Montreal with one on his car. eventually most followed suit. If nothing else it did make the car look better.

As with FC wings there are now umpteen different versions of front wings ' that are the best in the country'. I know which I like the best of the 4 I've tried but that only means that it is what works best with the rest of the way I run the car.

....did anyone test in a wind tunnel?

Or just copy and hope

[KevinFirlein]

Not sure of the factory ever did or not , but the teams did. I saw the results of one of those and the higher nose did stay one the car.

[George Main]

....did anyone test in a wind tunnel?

Or just copy and hope

I know PPI and Forsythe tested the RT-41 in the windtunnel. I was fortunate to spent time in the wind tunnel with the Reynard 92H but not the Ralt.

[George Main]

Hi George,

Any idea what ever happened to the Griffith-Ralts? I know that these cars used some unique parts, such as rockers, etc.

I believe Steve Cameron still has the 19 (Patrick's car), the 96 (Jeret's) was sold but I don't know who to...

[VehDyn]

I have some pictures of the Dauntless mods. I am sure they would have done some CFD; any wind tunnel? Any updates, Rennie/Stan?

[George Main]

to be fair, the raised nose on the rt41 was only there becasue Brian robertson, the NA importer , wanted the car to look like the benneton so he showed up to Montreal with one on his car. eventually most followed suit. If nothing else it did make the car look better.

As with FC wings there are now umpteen different versions of front wings ' that are the best in the country'. I know which I like the best of the 4 I've tried but that only means that it is what works best with the rest of the way I run the car.

I believe this to be correct also, Brain influenced Ron Tauranac to raise the nose. It did influence the strength of the front wings DF number as it was easy to "pin" the nose with downforce. The main plane degree numbers were highly critical. Height was also an issue, as too close to the ground and you could influence a porpoising effect on the chassis.
The big thing at the time in F3 (?) were the front end plate designs. Teams were spending incredible amounts of money on the end plate designs. Here in the states, the Players tech out lawed much of what you could do to the end plate designs.

[George Main]

The RT-41 is a pretty car. It's interesting to compare the nose design with the new Dallara F312, which is probably the closest modern car in terms of power, weight, downforce, and so on. I think the RT-41 was designed right around the time Benetton introduced their raised nose, and right before a raised nose became standard in F1.

It looks like the nose shape of the RT-41 is designed primarily to reduce drag rather than feed the undertray or improve the efficiency of the front wing. Of course, the aero design of cars with tunnels is different from flat bottom or "plank" cars like modern F1 or F3 cars. Does anyone know the history of the aerodynamic development of the car?

Nathan

Do you mean as far as what Ralt did or what the teams did?

[nulrich]

Both. I was mainly curious about the raised nose, which seems oddly shaped to me. Kevin explained it well, I think. It sounds like it was mainly a styling exercise and an afterthought. Hard to make an effective raised nose on a tub that was designed without one!

Nathan

[John Walko]

Both. I was mainly curious about the raised nose, which seems oddly shaped to me. Kevin explained it well, I think. It sounds like it was mainly a styling exercise and an afterthought. Hard to make an effective raised nose on a tub that was designed without one!

Nathan

I've been saying that for years... Thanks Nathan.

[Chris Livengood]

I've been saying that for years... Thanks Nathan.

Lies!!!




Okay, maybe not.

[nulrich]

The nose is definitely lower drag, but the wing section itself is very thick to accommodate the support tubes, so you lose a bit of efficiency there. And the dihedral costs you in the center section. In my opinion, it's probably better than most raised nose wing designs, though. I wish we could have tested one of those noses in the wind tunnel, my prediction is that it would have been almost as good as the Radon front wing package.

I'd think a car designed with a raised nose could be worth a lot for FA, it should feed the undertray and tunnels much better. How hard is it to homologate a new FA chassis? The GCR is a bit vague, do you have to actually do a crash test? The static tests are easy, it's the sled testing that's expensive. I guess you could start with a Dallara tub and convert it into an FA chassis, but it would probably be hard to incorporate tunnels: all the new F3 cars are not only flat bottom, but also require a 50 mm step from the center plank. They still corner at 3.5 gees...

Nathan

[bill gillespie]

Nathan,

Could you start with a new 41 tub ?......avoid new homologation crash testing......I believe a vendor for that tub is still available.

Regards,
Bill

[bill gillespie]

Nathan,

This wing was excellent on top end for my last 41........no noticeable loss of Front downforce......no tunnel test, but looke right for feeding the tunnels.

Regards,
Bill

[nulrich]

Nice parts, Bill.

What they learned in F1 was that a very high nose allowed them to shape the leading edge of the splitter (tea tray) to feed the undertray more efficiently. If the nose or front bulkhead is anywhere close to the bottom of the car that won't work as well, so I don't think any of the existing FA tubs would work with a highly raised nose. I don't see any restrictions in FA on the position or shape of the leading edge of the floor, so you could do something pretty extreme.

The current trend is also to very long and thin noses. Unlike F1 and F3, I don't see any restrictions in the FA rules on minimum cross-section of the tub, so you could make a very slender tapered shape and get significant gains (of course, you might have to limit the size of the driver's shoes!).

A clean sheet of paper design for FA is hard to justify unless this new series really develops, but maybe there are some existing F3 tubs that could be adapted. How high is the front bulkhead on the Star Mazda tub? That should be a nice piece now that Crawford is making it.

Nathan

[Zebra]

What are the times at Watkins Glen for the best Indy Light compared to Best Atlantic times. And does an Atlantic have higher cornering speeds an G's than an F3, Indy Lights & GP2

[Paul LeCain]

What are the times at Watkins Glen for the best Indy Light compared to Best Atlantic times. And does an Atlantic have higher cornering speeds an G's than an F3, Indy Lights & GP2

In 2010, James Hinchcliffe qualified in Indy Lights at 1:37.3594.
In 2011, P.W. LeCain qualified in a Ralt-RT-41 (Atlantic) at 1:44.771.

[Zebra]

Did he race the long track?

Indy L has 420hp but does it develope the same cornering G's

[TTMRacing]

Indy Lights used the long course and because of the power probably has more speed on the straights, but the FA should out corner the IL car.

Mike G.

[Paul LeCain]

Did he race the long track?

Indy L has 420hp but does it develope the same cornering G's

Yeah. The last (only) time he ran the short track, it was like 1:08.

I don't have any Indy Lights data, so I don't know the relative corner speeds. I'd guess most of the advantage the Indy Lights has is on the two straights. The best top speed we've seen on the back straight is 150 in an Atlantic. Depending on wind direction, you can get close to that on the front straight, too.

[S Lathrop]

I have engineered both Indy Lights and FA. FA included RT 40-41 and all the Swifts. Indy Lights was the Lola T97 and the Dallara (both mono shock and dual shock fronts).

The fastest cornering car was the Lola T97. That car could produce its own weight in down force at 150 mph. It had 420 HP (when you had a good motor).

Next on the list might be a Swift 014. It makes a lot of down force compared to a Dallara. The Dallara makes 30% less down force compared to the Lola. The Dallara laps as fast or better than the Lola T97 because of its better straight line speed.

I did some initial testing with the last Swift. My impression was that it was not much better than the first Swift. More HP so it was faster. It had lots of down force and a chassis that mechanically wanted to push.

The easy car to make a driver happy was the RT41. The Lola T97 did a great job training drivers for bigger and faster cars. After the Lola Lights, everything else was just faster, not any harder to drive.

[tonyave]

In 96 i won Homestead, Lazzaro won Milwaukee after I tangled with a lapped car, and Case Montgomery won Long Beach. Lazzaro was running on a shoestring, i got hurt at the June Sprints, totalling the ex-trueman car i was driving, and Lynx/Carpentier were untouchable for the rest of the year. While they didnt exactly lead every lap of the season (its ok George, I know you're getting old), they definitely had everyone totally covered over the last 2/3's of the season.
Tony

[tonyave]

As far as driveability, the Ralts were the type of car you could really wring out, they would respond to an aggressive style a lot better than the 008, although i won at Nazareth in one of those as well. It just seemed like they took more finesse. George can probably attest to how 'racy' the Ralts were, i seem to remember they were easier to manipulate in dirty air than the Swifts. We had a lot of follow the leader races once the Swifts came out. Might be just how i remember it though.....

[Zebra]

Since I toss an FC around like a F.... Doll I guess I am doomed in the 008 that I will run next year.

It will be an interesting year

[Stan Clayton]

As far as driveability, the Ralts were the type of car you could really wring out, they would respond to an aggressive style a lot better than the 008, although i won at Nazareth in one of those as well. It just seemed like they took more finesse.

Yes, Tony...but you won in an 008 only after Vicki threw 50 lbs, a 5/8" undertray plank and 14-degrees of rear wing flap angle on the Ralts to allow the 008 to catch up.

[tonyave]

Actually by that time you could only run the 008. But im with you. I was pretty vocal about how they wanted a spec car but ended up with something slower, unreliable, very poorly done, and more expensive. If thats the path they wanted to follow (spec) they should have just specced the Ralt.
After the 008s were updated and rubbed on they got acceptable to deal with, but out of the box in 98 they were an abomination.

[carl correll]

The cars simply became a profit center for the series. They could not make money from the cars and Brian could. So, in stepped Carl (no added value from his added margin) Haas, and Swift with their crap (don't get fussy, all you poor blokes got to drive the same crapwagon) wagon.

You could say I'm still pretty peeved.

[VehDyn]

This has been all good info about the past of the Pro Atlantic series.

Now with the new series available putting things back on a level field, this should be an awesome series to watch. Plus, there should be great weekends to attend with the whole group of FF, FC, and FAs together. Sounds like a good roadtrip just to go watch.