Regional Formula Car Entry Numbers

[Bill Bonow]

While everyone is towing home from the ARRC, figured it's time to kick off the post season discussion.

About a month ago, I posted some FV Regional entry numbers as being at a scary level. At the time, SCCA had only posted entry numbers through June 30. The numbers are now through September 30 (still not 100%, but a reasonable representation) and I thought rather than picking on any one class, how about a general comparison of all small bore/non-winged formula cars over all divisions (pick on everyone).

Attached is a data comparison of what is listed on the SCCA website. I thought for certain that FST was completely off the radar.... surprise, surprise FST is actually the most subscribed non-winged formula class in one division It is interesting that certain divisions have strong entries in a certain class. Overall, FV is still the strongest (should be, as its SCCA's 4th most popular class), but it definatly is getting weaker, one division at a time.

This thread is not a shot at anyone or any class. Just data for comparison and to note that as small of a group as FST is, banded together, FST will continue to move ahead.

Let the discussion begin

[Bill Bonow]

As a side note, South East Division has put on 61 Regionals as of September 30, holy crap, no wonder their average numbers look so weak

[G.B.]

Bill,

Do you have the figures from 2009 & 2010 so we have a comparison?

Guy.

[Bill Bonow]

Guy,

I would love to find that info, as you say, it would make a great comparison. I'm not sure where it would be archived on the SCCA website. Always open to suggestions on where to get this type of info.

[butch deer]

The decission of the SCCA to allow national classes to remain elligable even if they do not meet the previous 2.5 car count will keep theese cars out mof regional compition thus making regional racing even less attractive to regions and making it harder for us to find race dates as the car counts dwindle. In the future we may find ourselves running more non SCCA venues in order to provide a practical and varried schedule.

[LanceKTM950]

"In the future we may find ourselves running more non SCCA venues in order to provide a practical and varied schedule"

Come run Midwestern Council, we run Blackhawk Farms, Road America and possibly other tracks in 2012. FST is eligible (when requested) to run in two race groups so there's the opportunity for twice the track time at entry fees lower than the SCCA. Council is also considerably friendlier than SCCA.

Lance Renshaw

[Stan Clayton]

Bill, Do you have the figures from 2009 & 2010 so we have a comparison? Guy.

Guy, I would love to find that info, as you say, it would make a great comparison. I'm not sure where it would be archived on the SCCA website. Always open to suggestions on where to get this type of info.

I don't have 2010 Regional numbers, but I show this for 2009 through the end of August:

FST 131
FV 473

[Bill Bonow]

SCCA posted the regional entry numbers through the end of November. Most of the data remained pretty constant. The exception was Great Lakes Division FV entries. Man, those guys like to come out in droves late in the season!

Anyway, it is interesting to see where classes are strong and where they are weak. Same for divisions as well.

It would be great to make comparisons with past years. I think it is safe to say the numbers are down.

As for FST, we need to grow. But judging by the data, we're not that bad.

[GT1Vette]

I know you're only going by what was presented to you, but I have to question the 75 regional events in SEDiv in 2011. We had 32 races in the 2011 SARRC season, so that means we had even MORE non-SARRC than SARRC regionals? Granted CFR puts on half a dozen non-SARRC regionals but I'll bet the numbers include single-group restricted regionals (like the Pro-IT and CCPS races) that are not open to formula cars at all. Even adding those 15-20 events, however, I wonder what else is being counted.

You'd want to know what was being counted before making decisions based on these numbers. As my dad used to say, "Figures don't lie but liars figure".

[Bill Bonow]

Butch,

You're right. I'm taking the SCCA info as gospel (i.e. ripe for a screwing). Not sure where the 75 comes from, but if they are real, that is a poop load of regionals!

[Bill Bonow]

Butch,

Got me thinking, so I went to the SARRC site and counted 2010 and 2009 SARRC sanction numbers. (63) in 2009 and (65) in 2010. Not quite (75), but still a whole bunch more than any other division.

[GT1Vette]

Bill,

I'd like to see what you're counting to come up with those numbers. If you look at the spreadsheet(s) totaling the SARRC points on the SEDiv website (www.SEDivRacing.org) there are 31 points events plus the SIC in 2011 and 29 plus the SIC in 2010. I don't have the 2009 points, but I'm VERY confident it's around 30 events rather than twice that.

On edit - Looking at the list of sanction numbers I agree there are 63 in 2009. However 19 of those are Enduros (middle letter 'E') and a number of them (at least 12) are Pro-IT or Carolina Cup races (IT cars only). Subtract those out plus the few non-SARRC regional races and we're both in the same neighborhood.

Butch

[Bill Bonow]

Butch,

Glad you know the sanction codes. I reworked the numbers based on the "BK" estimate of 30 races. Made some improvements on the numbers (obviously).

Thanks to BK for calling BS The numbers do make a lot more sense.

[Purple Frog]

Bill,
Don't feel bad. Butch was a math major in college.
Everytime i think he is finally getting old, he does some equation in his head faster than i can figure out how to turn on the calculator.
Both Rand and I think his beautiful wife must have some weird passion for human calculators. .... We also have come to the conclusion that she thinks drivers of wee bit formula cars are just plain silly.

[Matt King]

Given those averages, it doesn't appear there is a whole lot of actual racing going on in most regionals. That is of course to assume that one agrees it takes two cars for a race to occur. Makes you wonder if the regional program might actually do better if it was turned into a non-competitive time trial program and move all the wheel to wheel action into the nationals.

[Tom Valet]

Butch,

Glad you know the sanction codes. I reworked the numbers based on the "BK" estimate of 30 races. Made some improvements on the numbers (obviously).

Thanks to BK for calling BS The numbers do make a lot more sense.

Did you do the re-working for every division? Northeast also has enduros and Pro-ITs and events not open to formula cars and others divisions as well I would imagine.

[Bill Bonow]

Tom,

I'd love to post as accurite info as possible. I know very little about sanction numbers. Butch said 30 regionals in SE Div and I reworked them to his spec. I can't tell you how accurite the 30 is, just as I can't say how accurite SCCA's numbers are either.

I just took the number SCCA posted and ran with it (large mistake!)

[John Nesbitt]

Maybe TMI:

You have to be very careful about interpreting these numbers, and distinguish among weekends, events, sanctions, and races.

The table shows 61 races in SEDiv and 31 in NEDiv. Now, SEDiv is the largest Division, but it is not twice the size of NEDiv.

<taking a deep breath> A weekend may comprise one or more sanctions, and a sanction may comprise one or more races (i.e. a set of race groups takes the Green and race to the Checker). “Event” can take several meanings; many of us equate it with “weekend”, but some take it to mean “sanction” and others equate it to “race”.

So we have to be careful to compare apples to apples.

For example, a Region may stage a triple-race weekend under a single sanction. Another Region may have a separate sanction for each of three races in a weekend. I suspect that the statistics on the SCCA site are not defining “race” as a single Green/Checker for a set of race groups, but are counting sanctions.

Many multi-sanction weekends contain one or more enduros, for which open wheel cars are not eligible. Thus, calculating per-race participation by sanction would give open wheel classes a lower average. (Compare the per-race averages between NEDiv and SEDiv. Enduros are much more popular in SEDiv than NEDiv.)

My bottom line on the SCCA numbers is: do not focus too closely on the per-race averages, since they will vary from Region to Region and Division to Division depending on local sanctioning practice and weekend composition.

The aggregate numbers are a little better, but still reflect different sanctioning practices.

Your best bet is to compare year-to-year total numbers by class for each Division. Sanctioning habits change very slowly, so the year-to-year numbers will give you a trend line on class health.

[GT1Vette]

Given those averages, it doesn't appear there is a whole lot of actual racing going on in most regionals. That is of course to assume that one agrees it takes two cars for a race to occur.

This would be an accurate statement regarding non-winged formula cars in SEDiv at least. Participation levels in the CF, F5, (F6), FF, FST, FV group now average less than ten cars per weekend. Car counts for the winged cars are not much better and many regions have started combining all formula cars into one group for regional races.

You can argue self-fulling prophecy (and rail against Spec Miata taking over the world) if you'd like, but the single-seater car counts were already seriously declining BEFORE this action was taken.

[Bill Bonow]

John,

Thanks for the info and helpful comments.

Seems like I should go back into the garage and stop looking at the "data" SCCA posts on the website. I've been waving a red flag about the status of regional racing for a number of years. Topeka (a generalization) could give a crap less about the condition of regional racing. The standard answer I always get is: "that's a problem of the region, we only care about Nationals and the Runoffs".

I'm too dumb to understand the big scope of things

Guess we really only need to worry about regionals once regions start cancelling events due to lack of entries

[Stan Clayton]

This would be an accurate statement regarding non-winged formula cars in SEDiv at least. Participation levels in the CF, F5, (F6), FF, FST, FV group now average less than ten cars per weekend. Car counts for the winged cars are not much better and many regions have started combining all formula cars into one group for regional races.

Yep...and not just back east. At their April Dbl Nat'l at Buttonwillow CalClub has combined all formula and sports racer classes into one run group for years.

You can argue self-fulling prophecy (and rail against Spec Miata taking over the world) if you'd like, but the single-seater car counts were already seriously declining BEFORE this action was taken.

Tru dat...the decline of formula class and category entries has been going on since the early 80's. The reasons are many and complex, but the bottom line is that we are a distinct minority.

[Stan Clayton]

I've been waving a red flag about the status of regional racing for a number of years. Topeka (a generalization) could give a crap less about the condition of regional racing. The standard answer I always get is: "that's a problem of the region, we only care about Nationals and the Runoffs".

Guess we really only need to worry about regionals once regions start cancelling events due to lack of entries

I'm not sure why you've been waving a red flag. Regional entries have closely mirrored National entries for years...though it's true that Regional entries are probably more sensitive to the overall economy. As with many things in SCCA racing, what looks like a looming catastrophe in one Region or Division isn't necessarily a problem elsewhere. Case in point: San Fran Region routinely sells out run groups at its dozen Regionals, but struggles to make its Dbl National break even.

Also, don't believe anyone who says SCCA doesn't care about Regionals. The Club has only four primary sources of income: retained earnings from Enterprises, membership dues, the Runoffs, and entry fees (IIRC about $3/car for Nationals and about $2/car for Regionals). We get 2-3 times as many Regional entries per year as National entries. Do the math...

[thomschoon]

Given those averages, it doesn't appear there is a whole lot of actual racing going on in most regionals. That is of course to assume that one agrees it takes two cars for a race to occur. Makes you wonder if the regional program might actually do better if it was turned into a non-competitive time trial program and move all the wheel to wheel action into the nationals.

Wouldnt it make sense to just go the "Rational" route and have larger fields for Nationals? For some regions they may need that to make any race a viable business entity. We are competing with many clubs for track time and they may be willing to pay a larger fee to get the weekend versus mid-week slots, I would like to see Topeka be a bit more proactive so we make decisions from a position of strength versus panic mode.

Just my $.02

[Matt King]

Wouldnt it make sense to just go the "Rational" route and have larger fields for Nationals?

It definitely makes sense to me that there should only be one tier of club racing, but I also think there is an opportunity for open track/time trial type events for people who just want track time to run their cars and don't necessarily care about trophies and championships.

[John Nesbitt]

Rationals are not the be-all and end-all. It depends highly on the particular market (or Region or Division).

For example, RMDiv is very sparsely populated (in racecar terms, anyway) and found it difficult to support either standalone Regionals or standalone Nationals. Rationals let the Division put on events for their entire racing base and offer a better chance of working as a business proposition. The resulting fields are still of a size that permits the Division to stage two-day double Rationals (double Nationals with Regional entries added).

By the same token, NPDiv has a very strong Regional program. So they have less incentive to stage Rationals, which would cannibalize their Regional entries.

NEDiv is experimenting with Bonus Nationals as an alternative to pairing a restricted Regional with a single National.

Keep in mind also that many Regions put on double Regional weekends. Once an event reaches a certain size (i.e. a certain number of race groups), it can no longer fit a double Rational into the weekend (due to the track time/race distance requirements for Nationals). You can do a five-group double Rational in a two-day weekend; you cannot do a nine-group double Rational in the same two-day weekend.

There is a tremendous diversity across the country. The BOD (through the GCR) offers organizers an array of options (double Nationals, Rationals, Restricted Regionals, Bonus Nationals) to help them put on events suited to their local market.

The forthcoming revisions to the National program (to be prototyped in SWDiv, MIDiv, and RMDiv in 2012) are the Board’s attempt to revive National racing.

[Bill Bonow]

Stan,

I may be too old school (SCCA member for 29 years), but the red flag is to draw attention that National/Runoffs guys typically start at the regional level. Hence poor long term regional entries will eventually effect National/Runoffs entries.

The guys out on the left (Bay Area) coast have a dynamite regional program, strong as can be.

Go to a few regionals around these parts with 50 to 70 car entries ( I was at one with 29 cars!), dozen or more regionals being cancelled over the past few years, talk to the host regions who are losing thousands per weekend who claim that Topeka could care less.

I'm sure economy has everything to do with it, it just needs attention, not denial.

I don't like being a hater, but I've tried a number of the SCCA channels and they all seem to be non-functional.

[Matt King]

Rationals are not the be-all and end-all. It depends highly on the particular market (or Region or Division).

Rationals still represent the old model of two tiers of racing, just trying to fit everything into a single weekend schedule. IMO, a race is a race. You build a car to the rules and run it against everyone else who built a car to those rules. I never understood the concept of Regionals and Nationals all within Club racing.

[John Nesbitt]

Rationals still represent the old model of two tiers of racing, just trying to fit everything into a single weekend schedule. IMO, a race is a race. You build a car to the rules and run it against everyone else who built a car to those rules. I never understood the concept of Regionals and Nationals all within Club racing.

That is certainly a sustainable point of view.

In fact, a Rational is as close as nevermind to your "race is a race" - all the Runoffs classes (the Runoffs will continue, no matter what) plus whatever classes the organizers want to add.

Consider two things:

1. Not every part of the country wants Rationals (or "a race is a race"). Some Regions'/Divisions' business models are based on the current split.

2. Many entrants ("customers") prefer the current model.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I am not sure what encompasses the Nor Pac region but those regional car counts seem pretty low compared to the San Francisco region car counts. Below is the small bore formula car count for a total of 13 regional races in the SFR in 2011.

• FV 9.15/Race
• CF 9.07/Race
• FF 6.8/Race
• FST 1.2/Race

[lenhart05]

And don't forget about the super tour, showcase nationals, etc... Let's divide the national series into two different types of nationals??? If we put it them in perceived order:

super tour national
national
rational
division champ series regional
regional

[Bill Bonow]

Tad,

Not sure where your heading, but this thread was just taking about regional races and open wheel counts. Obviously, SCCA issues many saction numbers for various types of regional races, so I blew it by using SCCA provided data that I did not understand


The lesson here: don't let morons use the internet to gather information


Scott,

As stated, I wish we all had as solid of a regional program as SRF, top notch! The data provided by SCCA is Nor Pac based. Here is the Nor Pac map as provided by SCCA (unsure if it can be trusted due to my recent experience ). Looks like other regionals could be dragging the SFR numbers down.

[farrout]

Lets not forget that Many Regional cars are not competitive for a National event. DSR is one of those classes where there are 2 tiers of cars. Those of us who run the older pre-Stohr type cars are going to be 5-10 seconds behind a Stohr.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Scott,

As stated, I wish we all had as solid of a regional program as SRF, top notch! The data provided by SCCA is Nor Pac based. Here is the Nor Pac map as provided by SCCA (unsure if it can be trusted due to my recent experience ). Looks like other regionals could be dragging the SFR numbers down.

Bill,

Saw your post regarding SFR. I was just surprised at the low average car counts in Nor Pac Division.

Not sure why SCCA uses the national division grouping to measure participation in the regional program. I guess it really doesn't matter........

[Hardingfv32]

It is worth mentioning that that the SFR numbers are is the same slow decline as the rest of the country. They just started with a higher base.

Brian

[John Nesbitt]

Numbers are down pretty much everywhere.

We can state the problem very easily: we have a long-term decline in membership and entries.

A diagnosis is more difficult. The reasons are complex and interrelated, so it is hard to assign relative weights to each. My leading candidates include:

• the general economic situation
• social changes (rise of two-career households, hollowing-out of the middle class, competition for spare time, decline of automotive tinkering)
• the rise of competing sanctioning bodies
• SCCA organization and event management
• an unattractive product
• an aging demographic

Some of these are both cause and effect (see: negative feedback loop).

Any solution will be fiendishly difficult and multi-dimensional. There is no silver bullet.

The Board is engaging, and trying to turn things around. There are hints in the two most recent Fastracks. The forthcoming announcement will set out its plans to revitalize national racing.

Hear what they have to say. Engage with them. Agree with them or disagree with them, but recognize that they are grappling with a tough problem.

[LAJ]

Cheaper,Faster or always Better idea of a Racecar. We have divided ourselves into 11 different classes of open wheeled cars just on this site !!! 9 different Independent Racing bodies just on this site,10 if you include the SCCA!! We have plenty of cars and drivers they are just spread out way to much. Some divisions have way too many raceweekends and some others have to few nationals. Someone does not like the SCCA so they start their own racing body it all just thins things out way too much.

We have divided ourselves till we have almost no one to race with!!!(in our own class) This does not event count the PRO SERIES !!

When I started racing there was FV,FF,FF2000 ,FB AND FA AND YOU RAN PRO OR SCCA that was just about it.

LEE
How about I put a Honda in an FF2000 ?

[Amon]

I agree with too many classes! The addition of the Spec Wrecker Fords (SFR)
also haven't helped our numbers that OUR own SCCA sells to compete against
who: US!

Mark