What is the SCCA test? For pro series its simply the air box inlet is plugged when the engine is running in impound and it has to stall.Originally Posted by Paul LeCain
What is the SCCA test? For pro series its simply the air box inlet is plugged when the engine is running in impound and it has to stall.
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Rev to 4,000rpm, plug the SIR and it has to stop within 5 seconds. You tune the airbox leaks to shut it off just short of 5 seconds.
It led to some yelling between engine builders, competitors and tech people at the runoffs during impound after qualifying. It was pretty entertaining.
I have had two people that I trust tell me that they can just program the ECU to shut off during the test.
The SCCA requires that the engine stop within 4 seconds from 2500 rpm when the air inlet is blocked. Unfortunately, even at the Runoffs there has been some variation in how this test was actually applied. I am told that in some cases 2500 rpm was not used, in other cases the shutdown time was not timed with a stopwatch, and in still other cases a crew member was allowed to block the inlet flow and conduct the test themselves.
But in my opinion the real potential problem is that in SCCA racing the sensors, ECU's, data acquisition, and telemetry are all open, unlike the Pro Atlantic Series of the past. It's not that difficult to imagine how some creative programming might influence the SCCA test results.
With an IIR the only required test is a measurement of the IIR dimensions.
Oops. I have trouble remembering. After the big blow up during the second qualifier they did at least have the teams pull the sidepods and get out the stopwatch and have a tech guy stop the intake for the next two qualifying sessions.
Wren,
I just saw your post and thought that I should check the GCR. It says that the test must be conducted from approximately 2500 rpm, and the engine must stop within 4 seconds with all intake pressure sensors disconnected.
Yeah, I looked it up too. You are right. I just think the drama is funny.
Tests and ECUs, etc.
Even F1 eventually threw up its hands trying to legislate what could happen in an ECU.
They then supplied 'common ECUs' because they couldn't come up with a way to check what was going on in the team's ECUs.
Air pressure sensors are only one thing you could use if you were trying to defeat the SCCA test. Radio transmitters? Infrared transmitters? Fluid pressure sensors?
In addition, it wouldn't be real hard to make a system which allowed air to pass at high air volume but not low volume. Check out what Toyota did in 1995 to allow more air into the engines in its 1995 rally cars: http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm.
It may be a stretch to suggest that this whole mess was created by the new engine table - but it's not much of a stretch. When everyone was running 1600cc engines built by just a few engine builders, there was sort of a gentleman's agreement that we wouldn't protest each other's engines. I think those days are gone.
SIRs control engine power, but they don't control costs. F3 requires a 26 mm SIR, yet they manage to produce 210-220 hp out of their 2.0 liter engines. But not cheaply or with much longevity.
What do people see as the long term future of Formula Atlantic? No one is producing new cars, and it's unlikely anyone will design and produce a new FA chassis given the current limited market. Can the class grow without significant changes to the structure?
Nathan
Amen, dude.
As far as I know, the various FIA F3 series all use a spec ECU provided by the various engine manufacturers. They also test the SIR by measuring the intake system vacuum with the valves closed and throttle bodies open. Not sure what equipment is required for this test.
Telemetry is also prohibited in F3.
F3 is probably the best developmental series in the world, for drivers, engineers, and mechanics. It is a shame that it has never found a place in the US market.
For those without memories long enough, it was "significant changes to the structure" that started us down this slippery, and steep, slope. All influenced by the almighty dollar with corporate money being thrown about higgledy-piggledy. Toyota, Swift, Mazda, Ford . . . . . all spawn of the Evil Empire.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Is that including truck.. trailer ...insurance and consumables for the rig...entry fees and all?
My costs were not quite that high with my DB4, but I think he is referring to engine, tires, brake pads, fluids, and race fuel. Gearbox wear and tear may also be included in that figure.
I always wonder what goes into the equations...tanks
Depending on how extravagant or cheap you want to be . . . Ie. fuel chosen, engine oil/geabox lube chosen, and especially how you treat the machine, these numbers will vary widely. I've always figured about $11 per mile including all consumables and an engine rebuild every 1500 miles and gearbox rebuild every 3000 miles. Your engine/gearbox builder of choice will also affect this number. I use Taylor and Jennings.
To give a number reflecting transportation, lodging, insurance etc. is meaningless as everyone has different standards and levels of equipment.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Ether test
[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]If you're airbox is truly sealed as mine has always been it will kill the motor in less than 2 seconds after practically snatching the ball out of the tech's hand. We've always paid special attention to the seal on our airbox. A proper SIR engine takes some pretty advanced engine mapping that will kill a motor very quickly should the airbox suddenly spring a leak.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Yes there has to be something better to tech SIR cars. It is all too easy to load an engine map that will so to speak die easily. I've heard of some sort of ether test where they can test for leaks as the car is running by spraying it around the airbox thus raising the idle. Anybody know more about this? Sounds pretty flammable to me.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Charlie, I respectfully disagree that transportation should not be in because of differences in the way you arrive.
It is a huge cost that no one ever talks about......the minim is transportation and logging if you are trying to get an accurate picture of running any car.
Just accounting for the basic would give a better snap shot IMO. ...
Tim,
Transportation is indeed a huge cost, but is not generally considered to be a "consumable" item. In my experience a consumable is considered to be an item whose wear and/or deterioration is directly related to miles or hours of use.
That said, I agree that transportation, entry and test fees, insurance, depreciation, tools, etc. make up a significant portion of total racing expenses.
Agreed....and one the novice never considers nor has any idea of how much...it is a huge variable in the cost.
Are there some kind of special FA-specific transportation costs involved?
Cheers,
Rennie
Transportation, lodging, cheese, wine, are not cost specfic to FA or any other particular class. If I fly into the local airport in my jet should that enter in to the equation? Your minimum, and mine may be quite different.
Jim Gustafson
...and as long as we are comparing costs to campaign a competitive effort in a particular class can we use "$/hr. of race time" as the standard unit of measure? That will paint a clearer picture. Otherwise some of the really slow classes look a lot more expensive than they really are.
Other way 'round, methinks...
Cheers,
Rennie
Rennie,
I guess that all depends on what you consider a "more accurate" picture. Do you want to pretend the laps are cheap or the hours are cheap?
Top fuel dragster racers don't talk about cost per mile or costs per hour, only cost per pass....seems less insane that way
I have this spreadsheet that i have been keeping since 1998. All race related costs from a roll of tape to engine rebuilds, car purchases, etc. So, i ran the numbers a few minutes ago.
$16.74 per mile.
And that's for a regional club racer driving old CFC cars and sleeps at the track. Doesn't include any costs of owning the shop to house the car, the cost of tow vehicles, lost income while at the track, or value of time spent maintaining the whole shebang.
Does that include towing costs? Meals on the road and at the track? For how many people?
My point is that an open trailer costing $500 can not be compared to a fully insured 40' gooseneck with all the fancy acoutrements costing $20k. Staying at the track can not be compared to the Osthoff or new Siebkins condos. Eating track food versus fancy places. If these costs are included in the cost-per-mile they contaminate the data.
I'm not trying to minimize these costs and anyone who doesn't consider them as part of their due diligence investigation as to whether they can afford to race or not needs to smell the coffee. We need to do our part to make sure someone who can barely afford a car is aware of them. Sometimes the advice is "wait until you can afford it" instead of "if you buy it you can make it happen. This harkens to a recent thread about taking out a loan to get the car. If you have to do that odds are you can not afford these incidental costs. YMMV
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
No food cost included. I did include the cost of tow fuel. Did not include the cost of the trailer.
Sure was hoping this would keep going
I try not to think about such things. I just pay the bill and move on. If i did my college would probably want it's business degree back and my wife would file for immediate divorce.
Formula 3 vs. Formula Atlantic
I know that this is an old thread, but operational costs of Formula racecars is always a current hot topic and much debated. I think that when people see what the actual running costs of a Formula 3 car compared to Atlantics let's say, I think they will be quite surprised to find that it is much cheaper as Formula 3 engines are more reliable as well as tire performance shelf-life. Parts aren't priced more than what Atlantic parts or even Star Mazda parts are, with availability and delivery time tables no problem whatsoever. Much of the other logistical costs of running any Formula car will ofcourse still apply, but again those numbers are the same for any Formula.
If your goal is to start an F3 series in Canada, I suggest you start a new thread to address that specific topic. I think you will find there are several folks on this board who are fairly knowlegeable about F3 cars and the costs involved in running the FIA-sanctioned F3 series.
When will they ever learn . . ."
Kingston Trio, and al.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Hey Charlie,
Chill-ax, baby.......passive / agressive just ain't your style !
Regards,
Bill
I can't help thinking of the USF3 race in Memphis years ago. What was it, 5 cars total? The only one I know of that made anything out of that fiasco was Bertils.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
...okay, will do, and about that old USF3 Series, let's not forget that it was started when the NASDAQ was at 5,000, then ofcourse the internet bubble burst and the index got cut in-half and then even further down to 1,100. With zero corporate sponsorship money being spent after that, I would be hard-pressed to think of any sports property debuting and surviving during that time period.
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