SCCA Group Buy Of Mandated H&N

[Tom Sprecher]

Who would I ask to see if SCCA would help its members by administering a group buy at a discount of the mandated H&R devices?

It only seems it's the right thing for them to do.

[butch deer]

If the SCCA were to do that it would be competeing against many companies that sponsor several races,advertise in "SportsCar", already offer discounts to members, support boards like Apex and others, pay to have there name on the required sticker for " National Racing", etc. The people who keep these items in inventory even when they are not mamditory. These vendors have helped make it possible for us to enjoy our sport. I don't think my club should take away three business so the members can possibly save twenty bucks on a $700.00 purchase.

[kea]

Well said Butch.

[Tom Sprecher]

So you feel that because the SCCA makes a small amount of revenue from these vendors, it should support these corporations that will profit from the mandate, instead of its own members, who through dues, Convention fees, sanction fees, license fees and Runoffs entry fees, pay the vast majority of the SCCA's bills?

Interesting.

With the size of the group SCCA represents I was thinking more like $150. That's only 20%.

[jhenn4716]

Two issues to address, first is that this isn't a matter of the SCCA helping different companies make a buck off the driver by mandating a new H&N restraint. The issue is about driver safety and the data that shows the safety that these devices provides.

Secondly the SCCA can't favor one or another company by soliciting a discounted rate on behalf of the drivers. Yet, there is nothing to stop a group of drivers from talking to each other.. i.e. here on the forum.. and putting together a group order.

I'll be looking at the different options this off season and selecting what I think will be best for my needs. I just need to factor the additional cost into my budget.

[Tom Sprecher]

The topic is about the SCCA helping out it members. They can do this and not favor any one manufacturer at the same time.

[carnut169]

I like the idea, and it would not have to effect the vendors.

IE- Hans tells all of it's vendors that they will support a $XX discount for SCCA members who purchase a device from now to 2012. Instead of the vendor paying Hans $100 for each device, they pay $80 and pass the discount on to the member.

The vendor still makes the same $$, the discount is absorbed by Hans (or the other approved H&N device makers).

This new requirement will mean loads of sales/ re-certs for the approved makers- mostly Hans I imagine. A discount is appropriate.

All new members will also need a device so the regular profit can be established after the required purchases.

[marshall9]

Are we talking about buying from SCCA or asking vendors to give a discount to Members?

Or are we talking cutting out vendors, and the order coming directly from HANS? I can't see HANS discounting directly to Members and eliminating vendors from the equation. HANS should step up and offer a time limited discount to SCCA members and rebate the savings to vendors. Vendors should not lose out on a portion of the already low profit margin in these. Maybe SCCA could send Members a coupon that is redeemable at Authorized vendors. They ae the ones that stock them , and will be asked the questions from new users. I know I had several questions about belt placement, etc. when I bought mine from Averill, which he gladly answered with knowledge that gained form training required to be a vendor in the first place . He is too customer service oriented to tell me to call HANS, if I had bought from them directly, but I couldn't blame him if he did.

Also, does this idea assume that all Members will want HANS? What about those that find the Defender or the Simpson product more comfortable?

IMO , as a Formula car driver, HANS is my choice as my vision, and fit support it. Only a small portion of SCCA cars are Formula cars, and the required seats in Sedans generally give more lateral support, thus some of the other makes of devices might be an option if I was driving them.

[Daryl DeArman]

Why would HANS give you a discount IF they know you have to buy a device and are likely to follow the herd and buy their device anyway?

The HANS is already on the less expensive end of the SFI/FIA compliant device spectrum. Active SCCA members who need a device are a fraction of their market.

Vendors who have purchased inventory in anticipation of having items on the shelf get screwed.

I never sold a HANS device when I had my shop (pre widespread awareness), but I imagine the margins aren't as healthy as many would assume. Especially when manufacturers are competing with their own retailers for the same sale.

[Charles Warner]

With the size of the group SCCA represents I was thinking more like $150. That's only 20%.

The size of the group comprised by SCCA racers is small compared to the rest of the racing world.

And, why not ask the same of suit manufacturers, helmet manufacturers, belt manufacturers? Would not the same logic apply?

Any such consideration would harm the vendors. It amazes me how many racers bust their butts to save the few bucks that should go to the guys who try to make their incomes from supporting our sport. Keith, how often do you spend minutes at a time on the phone or on line answering questions and giving advice to those who will probably never spend a dime with you? (Rhetorical question: no answer required.) Is that fair to him? Or the many other vendors who go out of their way to support us. How many think it is above-and-beyond for TRE to have a weekend hotline? How many will go to TRE for gearbox parts or try to beat them up by searching for a $5.00 cheaper gear?

Put yourselves in their shoes. They make their livings supporting our hobby. We should support them. If you can't support those who support us then maybe another avocation should be chosen.

[carnut169]

Guys- we are talking about a Hans supported discount, not a vendor supported one. If I called hans and asked if I could get a discount for buying 1000 devices don't you think they would agree?

...and it's not the same as driving suits, unless they were not required at any point prior to 2012 and now they are required.

Not everyone has huge $$ to spend on racing so this might mean one less entry next year for some. Why not leverage the buying power for this occasion and get a discount?

Again- not saying Averill should pay. He should be able to make the same $$ for each sale or it won't work (same with the other vendors). The coupon is a good idea.

I would think hans, R3 or whoever might want to send out a coupon and encourage driver to buy their device.

[cooleyjb]

Guys- we are talking about a Hans supported discount, not a vendor supported one. If I called hans and asked if I could get a discount for buying 1000 devices don't you think they would agree?

...and it's not the same as driving suits, unless they were not required at any point prior to 2012 and now they are required.

Not everyone has huge $$ to spend on racing so this might mean one less entry next year for some. Why not leverage the buying power for this occasion and get a discount?

Again- not saying Averill should pay. He should be able to make the same $$ for each sale or it won't work (same with the other vendors). The coupon is a good idea.

I would think hans, R3 or whoever might want to send out a coupon and encourage driver to buy their device.

No I think they probably wouldn't. We're a captive audience.

[LenFC11]

many moons ago there was a group buy of HANS devices organised by members of apexspeed. don't remember how it all went down but i do remember recieving a fairly sizable discount

[Northwind]

The insurance company that covers SCCA with a blanket policy should be the one offsetting some cost. I doubt the rates are going to drop much to cover our events but the risk for a big claim and payout will be reduced for them bigtime.

[marshall9]

The insurance company that covers SCCA with a blanket policy should be the one offsetting some cost. I doubt the rates are going to drop much to cover our events but the risk for a big claim and payout will be reduced for them bigtime.

Maybe. If the device is purchased from SCCA directly, and a failure occurs, it could increase rates, stick with the vendors...........

[Matt King]

When I bought my first HANS I got it at a discount from a friend who was setting up to become a HANS dealer and passed along the savings as part of his initial inventory buy-in. I think this is how most groups buys work--the organizer effectively becomes a "dealer" and the participants cover the minimum order at the dealer price. HANS enforces a minimum advertised price policy, which is why you don't see much if any price competition from vendors, so I'm not sure anyone is in a position to offer a discount on them. Of course, any vendor could offer a "10 percent off all orders over $100" type of deal, taking the discount out of their own profit margin.

[ASRF1000]

The best way to make a group buy is to have one guy or group be the point person where all orders go through. That person or group contacts vendors to see where they can get the best deal. Once they have the best price established, they make it known to SCCA members.

Orders are then placed with the point person or group, prepaid. When the orders are placed by the point person to the vendor, they are placed with the product to be drop shipped to the recipient. This takes out all the shipping hassles by the point person or group.

Don't count on SCCA being your discount organization.

It's a lot of paper work for someone with all the SCCA members that might be ordering, so its going to take someone who doesn't mind doing it. Also, it's best if the point person or group takes orders early (have a time limit) and place one big order so they don't have continually be placing orders, etc.

The other option, is to establish a special purchase code with the vendor, so that any SCCA member that purchases the device from the vendor directly and gives them the code receives the established discount.

Work with the vendors. They are more than happy to sell a large quantity of product and its best to support those who have been supporting the sport.

[budawe]

I have learned that HANS is very cranky about giving discounts and have fired vendors that have done so. I still can't figure out why they charge so much. My car is very unique and I had to go with the pro model to get a 40 degree. Thanks again to Safer Racer for the national point cert from last year. It's a bit of a monopoly since the SFI requirement has been implemented, but SCCA cannot get into the business of certifying equipment.

[mmi16]

I have learned that HANS is very cranky about giving discounts and have fired vendors that have done so. I still can't figure out why they charge so much. My car is very unique and I had to go with the pro model to get a 40 degree. Thanks again to Safer Racer for the national point cert from last year. It's a bit of a monopoly since the SFI requirement has been implemented, but SCCA cannot get into the business of certifying equipment.

And that is what SFI is - a business to sell certification stickers - Everything that requires a SFI certification returns $x.00 to SFI. What a racket! Reminds one of the Mob selling 'protection' to neighborhood businesses.

[Daryl DeArman]

HANS enforces a minimum advertised price policy, which is why you don't see much if any price competition from vendors, so I'm not sure anyone is in a position to offer a discount on them.

Until 2007 that was illegal....anti-trust laws and all. A Supreme Court case in 2007 ruled otherwise.

In practice the common work-around is:

Manufacturer sells directly to public at a price only 15-ish% higher than the wholesale cost to their own retailers. Some of them have been known to eliminate volume discounts as well.

Many manufacturers are competiting with the same people who are selling their products without giving their retailers margins that make fiscal sense to offer much wiggle room. Especially on products that a customer will buy once every 5 or so years at best.

Support the retailers and don't beat them up too much!

[cooleyjb]

Until 2007 that was illegal....anti-trust laws and all. A Supreme Court case in 2007 ruled otherwise.

In practice the common work-around is:

Manufacturer sells directly to public at a price only 15-ish% higher than the wholesale cost to their own retailers. Some of them have been known to eliminate volume discounts as well.

Many manufacturers are competiting with the same people who are selling their products without giving their retailers margins that make fiscal sense to offer much wiggle room. Especially on products that a customer will buy once every 5 or so years at best.

Support the retailers and don't beat them up too much!

All correct and HANS is the absolute strictest of all mfrs I've dealt with.

[Daryl DeArman]

HANS is the absolute strictest of all mfrs I've dealt with.

I never had the "pleasure", but I did sell Simpson back in the early to mid 90's when Simpson and Bell covered 95+% of the helmet market and Simpson had a business plan to open their own retail stores. Fun times.

[glenn cooper]

Have the 16 folks in N America that don't have a HNR yet get this thing sorted out yet?

(Where is that damned stick pokin' smiley?)

[JohnPaul]

I have learned that HANS is very cranky about giving discounts and have fired vendors that have done so. I still can't figure out why they charge so much. My car is very unique and I had to go with the pro model to get a 40 degree. Thanks again to Safer Racer for the national point cert from last year. It's a bit of a monopoly since the SFI requirement has been implemented, but SCCA cannot get into the business of certifying equipment.

No I think they probably wouldn't. We're a captive audience.

All correct and HANS is the absolute strictest of all mfrs I've dealt with.

They aren't the only game in town, if they dont extend a discount go to there competitor I'm sure they'll be more than happy to do the right thing

[cgscgs]

I guess I comprise 6.25% of the NA racing population who will need to buy a HNR this winter, and I think the group buy is a good idea. The monopoly (duopoly, oligopoly?) aspect of this might make it difficult, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Can we take an ApexSpeed poll/canvass to identify the other 15 who will join me on this deal?
Thanks,
Chuck Smith

[Joefisherff]

Chuck you should contact Continental Motorsports and asked them what kind of deal they would give you on a group buy. I think Jim and Jenny would be all over it.

Joe

[mmi16]

I guess I comprise 6.25% of the NA racing population who will need to buy a HNR this winter, and I think the group buy is a good idea. The monopoly (duopoly, oligopoly?) aspect of this might make it difficult, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Can we take an ApexSpeed poll/canvass to identify the other 15 who will join me on this deal?
Thanks,
Chuck Smith

Add me in to those that need to get a HNR for next year.

[na94]

Both my co-driver and myself need them just for hill climbs next year.

[cgscgs]

With the efficiency of ApexSpeed, we now have interest from 3/8 of the entire North American population of racers who need one of these things for next season.

Joe, I'll be at M-O in a couple of weeks, I'll stop and see them. Good suggestion.

For those of you who think this idea would "harm the vendors," does that sentiment apply to all group buys or just this one?

Chuck

[kea]

Compared to most industries, although "racing items/parts" are generally expensive, the cost/sales mark-ups are quite poor.

[cooleyjb]

Compared to most industries, although "racing items/parts" are generally expensive, the cost/sales mark-ups are quite poor.

Keith must get better pricing than I do.

[carnut169]

If I did not already have a Hans I'd call the corporate office here in Atlanta and I'd bet this could be arranged (the coupon that could be used at any vendor...)

Just takes someone to make the effort.

[kea]

Joe,
What mark-up is worse than poor ?
What ever it is, that's what I ment to say.

[cooleyjb]

Joe,
What mark-up is worse than poor ?
What ever it is, that's what I ment to say.

I was just joking. It's just sad how low the mark up is on the head restraints. It's always fun when the credit card company makes more than I do. At least they aren't as bad as transponders....

[Daryl DeArman]

The worst I had with Simpson way back when about 15 years ago was 15%...pitiful.

The Sport 30 sells for $635 directly from HANS, if there is a 15% margin the dealers' cost would be $552.17. Likely has to pay freight too. Call it $75 profit. Then JoeRacer calls and puts the $635 on his credit card which costs the dealer another $15 in fees. Netting him about $60.

So you order 10 of them and he makes $600 if he doesn't discount them AT ALL on a $6350 sale. Quit busting their b@ll$ and just spend the extra $50-$60 on something you are going to have to buy once every 10 years or so.

Why doesn't everybody get together and organize a group buy on tires?

[kea]

The local SCCA region sold transponders around here for many years, so I never got into them. I guess that must have been a good thing.

[sracing]

Chuck you should contact Continental Motorsports and asked them what kind of deal they would give you on a group buy. I think Jim and Jenny would be all over it.

Joe

The HANS contract for a dealer SPECIFICALLY says no resales, no group buys, etc.

And they enforce it VERY hard. Several retailers have lost their contracts. I doubt Continental will play. One phone call to HANS and they will be excluded. I doubt they will take that risk.

The markup on the HANS for the small retailer is not any more significant than Bell, Simpson, etc.

I see the MAP pricing of HANS good. It protects the small retailers (that usually offer more personal support.) Without this, Wal-Mart could be selling them 5% over cost. Everyone complains about the big discount chains killing the small stores , but then shops them. While we small shops provide the support, fitment and phone time.

IF Hans wants to offer a manufacture's coupon, that is fine. (allthough even then the retailer normally takes a hit also.) When you add shipping, handling, cc processing fees' etc. No small shop is going to sell making 5%.

We had to buy thousands of dollars worth of HANS inventory to become a retailer. I live by the same rules as the other sellers. I expert them all to play fair.

[sracing]

BTW, as a HANS factory trained dealer, I just sent an email to HANS explaining the desire for a "group buy", asking about the potential of a manufacture's coupon for a discount to SCCA drivers instead. I have no idea how it will fly, but will let you know if I hear anything. If nothing else, it will protect us because they will be looking for retailers that might try to participate in a inproper group deal.

[sracing]

Hans will be offering discounts of $50 for the top 10 finishers of all Run-Offs classes on the purchase of a unit. You purchase from one of us authorized dealers and you will get a $50 rebate direct from HANS.

Also from Sept - Oct the Pro and Sport 1 models will be reduced $50. This will not apply to the Sport II.

That is all they advised me of, other than they will be enforcing the MAP price and any "group buys".

[Charles Warner]

The question would seem to be: does the $50 come out of your pocket or HANS'?