Coop, I resemble that remark!!!!
Coop, I resemble that remark!!!!
Man. Is this still about shifters?
Is anyone suprised a new motor is making more power? 1st there was a hyper expensive Duc, then the BMW... now a Kawi that no one has turned a lap with, never mind finishing a race. Will it last at the higher RPMs? Is it really an advantage when the GSXR makes more torque down low?
My vote for the series is to just run as-is and see how it works out. Adding weight for HP alone... nope. Only makes sense if everything else was equal. I'd bet the fastest cars won't even be running the latest motors.
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
Yep
Originally Posted by carnut169
Man. Is this still about shifters?
Is anyone suprised a new motor is making more power? 1st there was a hyper expensive Duc, then the BMW... now a Kawi that no one has turned a lap with, never mind finishing a race. Will it last at the higher RPMs? Is it really an advantage when the GSXR makes more torque down low?
My vote for the series is to just run as-is and see how it works out. Adding weight for HP alone... nope. Only makes sense if everything else was equal. I'd bet the fastest cars won't even be running the latest motors.
"What he said"
yep, yep ---
What both those guys said.
C
So what I'm hearing is to let the cars with the new engines run with the same weight and wait to see what the outcome is? Is that right? If its a runaway situation, then consider weight assessment? If its not an issue, leave it alone?
I'm all ears and I'm interested in the opinions of those who are going to be competing in the Series this year.
I suggest starting a thread in the Pro series forum to prevent further confusion between the club and pro series.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
I have no dog in this fight , but that is what i am hearing. bob.....Have you ever thought about a masters sub class?...... that may interest me.... bob
Mike,
Point taken. I agree.
Bob,
If your question about a masters sub class is directed at me, probably best to discuss this in the Pro Series forum. But, there will be no subclasses in our series. However, there is a year-end prize for the master's champion.
Last edited by F1000champ; 01.18.12 at 11:00 AM.
Man. Is this still about shifters?
Is anyone suprised a new motor is making more power? 1st there was a hyper expensive Duc, then the BMW... now a Kawi that no one has turned a lap with, never mind finishing a race. Will it last at the higher RPMs? Is it really an advantage when the GSXR makes more torque down low?
My vote for the series is to just run as-is and see how it works out. Adding weight for HP alone... nope. Only makes sense if everything else was equal. I'd bet the fastest cars won't even be running the latest motors.
Agreed- You guys are getting the cart before the horse. This engine hasn't turned a lap yet, much less a weekend or a season. And people are already talking about ways to restrict cars running it. Just wait and see-Don't everyone get their panties in a wad already!
And another thing. $10k for a competitive(I'll admit, it looks pretty promising, though) engine? $5k+ for shifters(oops sorry I brought that up)? Just as I figured, it is getting expensive to run this class IN CLUB RACING! When it gets to that point, my car will be for sale. As a roller, and with a mechanical shifter, of course.
Forgive my ignorance, but why is the 07/08 GSXR preferred over the 9/10/11?
After the final dry sump iterations and oil recirculation improvements to the clutch cover and resolving the electronics issues that were apparent IMO the 09/10/11 is a lighter more desirable motor for sure.
09/10/11 has improved internals, and updated injectors etc.. problem is they made far less production and the costs of a zero mile where generally in the 4500 to 5500 range if finable which kept the community away from it generally..as well to get wrecked bikes or engines on ebay it has taken till about last year to start to see a regular supply. as well ontop of the engine a dry sump is required which is another $2500 so you can see the costs just escalate for the total engine package installed in the chassis
people rather went and spent $1500 to $2000 on a 07/08 and a wet sump $500 and a quick refresh ($2500) or not even refresh and just ran there motor with no idea what condition it was in. most car manufacturers already had engine mounts designed for the 07/08 making that route the cheaper and again more inexpensive option.
If I recall correctly from what George has told me, I believe it also made approximately 3hp LESS, stock-for-stock, than the '07-08.
So, given that it didn't share any bones with the previous motors, and would need new pans, engine mounts etc, it made zero sense to update existing cars.
-J
Bad Intel
Last edited by glenn cooper; 01.24.12 at 9:17 PM.
The crank shaft machining was an attempt to fix an oiling problem, in the end the recirculating
Into the clutch cover solved all the woes an machining the crank was in necessary
well, this thread went kinda crazy while we were busy working on the new zx10! now we are on the 09 gixxer? really? short answer, stay with your 07-08 if you like suzuki.
as for the debate about cost, and level playing field, yadda yadda ya, you guys will get over it soon enough. when the suzuki dethroned the r1, everyone just flocked to it and dropped that r1 so fast it wasnt even funny. the real problem here is we came out with a new engine package in the winter when everyone has more time here on the forum
if we had met the deadlines of our current customers, you would have had the last 2 months to debate this!
anyway, we finished our weekend testing last night and learned a lot about this new power house. the oiling system posed some very interesting challenges which sent me back to portland sunday to machine some new parts and back to georges to test again, and finally we have a very nice dry sump system for this engine. this engine operates very differently then most engines i have ever worked with, which may be the secret sauce to more hp. the final dry sump kit is light weight, and quick and easy to install. it will include a dual stage scavenge pump replacing the water pump, pan 1.25" max depth/thickness, oil cooler/heat exchanger elimination kit, and remote mount oil filter. the stock filter was on the pan, and most people i spoke with preferred a remote mount anyway, so that was the route we went. we will be offering the kit with either front inlet for those with tanks in the sidepod, or near the firewall, and or rear inlet for those with tanks behind the motor. these kits will go into production as we finish some past due orders up, and we are looking forward to seeing this new power plant go. george did a great job getting it running even better over the last few days, so this engine should be a real solid performer. it sure seems to have legendary kawasaki reliability so far!
Last edited by urbanimports02; 01.24.12 at 12:29 PM.
no cooler?
Did you mean that you don't have to run an oil cooler?
Jerry
this engine has an oil/water heat exchanger. the dry sump kit will eliminate that and scavenged oil will go through your oil cooler on its way back to the tank like all of my other kits. the blockoff plate includes (2) 1/8" pipe gauge ports, and the fitting for the oil filter. this engine should not need as much oil cooling as a gsxr, as we had trouble getting temp into it. i think the hottest we could get the oil after several pulls was 240 at the end of a pull, with no oil cooler whatsoever. most engines on the dyno will get to 265 no problem. we would finish a pull, look at data for a minute or two, and start another at around 215-220.
Jesse
Thank you for the update. Now you have me wondering, in what ways is this engine very different than others ? If you can explain some of the secrets to this engine making more power. Or if anyone knows what Jesse is referring to.
I read a few technical articles on the kawi engine and none of them implied a major deviation from traditional. What are some things bike factories are now doing to catch up?
Any guesses on the weight?? Would you say the engine would be solid with a fabricated wetpan.
I have a question, are there ways to implement engine equalization using a basic allowance like camshafts or extra compression. I can see it , p/n SCCAFB-YOSHI retail for $1400 for cams and pistons, no but seriously. Sounds like a good idea for the Club to look at some basic allowances for the "older engines".
Spending more than half the cost of the entire car on a new engine is just hard to justify. How long does the Club take to look at something and make an adjustment.
Ps. Yoshi might pay for the dyno work and documentation. And for some extra Obama bucks you can get the p/n SCCAFB-YOSHI-RILLO.
Juan Marchand
george and i have both invested a lot of time and money into this project, and will have to keep some of this info in the dyno room. those that get their hands on the motor will figure it out on there own, some probably the hard way, but trust me, this thing operates a little different and will effect both wet and dry sump. i think wet sump will prove fatal to this engine, although the design would likely allow for similar hp levels as all of the gearbox components are pretty high in the motor, however, there is a lot of volume/space for oil to go. top that with the taller height of the motor, and you wont have much room for a wet pan under there. the pan includes a portion of the pressure galleys, further taking away from oil volume in a wet sump system. i have designed a wet sump for the motor, and still have some details to sort, but after our tests, i am not so sure it is worth it. i certainly wouldnt track test it myself, nor stand behind it. as for weight, i am not going to guess, but my back says it is heavier then a gsxr. it is stout and very solid looking inside and out.
gotta get back to work now
Very interesting thank you.
my back tells me that heavier is more like 40 pounds when the dust settles
Jesse,
Any idea how the CG height compares to the Suzuki?
Looks like nice work Jesse.
Engine Weight
Hello, The Suzuki weighs 138 pounds with throttle bodies and no oil
The Kawasaki weighs 151 pounds with throttle bodies and no oil
George
George told me last week that his arms told him it was around 10 pounds heavier than the Suzuki. Shorter than the Suzuki, but taller. From the sound of it this should fit into the back of nearly all the chassis out there without too many mods. To fit the 09 Suzuki in the back of the Firman (which was shorter than the 07/08) all we needed were a couple of additional (extension) mounting brackets.
On the topic of the 09 Suzuki, there was some negligible differences in HP from the 07/08 Suzuki but the thing still broken more than one track record and we are still selling sump kits from that motor 2 years on (we had a couple sold just recenty in fact). So to think the 09 was a bust would be far off the mark. It's still a viable option to the 07/08. If you can get your hands on one that is.
PS. George you beat to the post on weight. I won't bother editing thou...
How wide is the motor? I like the 04/05 kawi because it has the starter clutch on the left (sprocket) side making it really narrow. Is the latest kawi like all the other suzukis (and later kawis) with the starter clutch on the right side too?
Hi Jesse,
What was the dyno room ambient temperature when this occurred?
Thanks,
Rick Kean
Thanks Mike. Doesn't look like the starter clutch is on the right side, so its like the first gen 10R. Hmmm........
Starter Clutch
Ted, The starter clutch is in the center of the engine,
Rick, It was probably 40 degrees or less in the dyno room that night, For that matter Jesse will tell you it was colder than that in my whole shop
George
Hey George, You driving that dry sump pump the same way we did on the ZX12 ?
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oiling modification required?
Can you describe the modification required to the K9 Suzuki?
WHat do you with a outdated motor
I saw this a few years back as a alternative use for outdated motors.
BUILD YOURSELF A PIT BIKE!
Last edited by crowe motorsports; 08.24.13 at 12:23 PM.
All you do is recirculate the dry sump back into the oil fill hole on the clutch cover. The crank case breather port then goes to your overflow. After that we have has 100% reliability
what he means is the oil tank breather. we found that since most of these cars are technically running too small of a dry sump tank, they were drinking the tank too low in most cases. george and i were working on a solution, and george kept telling everyone to fill the tank until it spews out what it cant take. that is what i have always told everyone as well. but, a few people were still having problems in a few select corners. george then asked what if we vented the tank back to the oil fill cap on the clutch cover so we could fill the tank to the top. i found a fitting that threads right into the clutch cover and we now vent the tank to there, and then use the engines crank case breather to vent the whole system. works amazing on all suzukis. you get the engine warm, fill the tank all the way, and now in those instances when it would spew that excess oil, it goes right back to the sump and stays in the system. when the car is on track running, this rarely happens, and has proven to work with no ill side effects. we have several customers out running this solution for a couple years now, including 2 of my stohr guys, and engines are like the energizer bunny now.
what jesse said.
George - Are the exhaust systems for both engines identical? Stock headers?
The exhaust system on the motorcycle was stock header, catalytic converter, and a slip on muffler that was made to go on a 2010 model motorcycle, When I tested the engine I used a Muzzy exhaust systen that was built for West Racecars for the IMSA series, The GSXR motorcycle was all stock as I tested it
George
Do I understand this correctly?
ZX10R - DSR header (4-1? 4-2-1? Primary/Secondary Lengths?), no cat, Some sort of straight-through muffler (length?)
GSX-R 1000 - Stock header (4-2-1 I think, I can find P/S lengths), cat, and what kind of muffler? One of the stock GSXR mufflers our FSAE team had was a chambered muffler, despite looking like an aftermarket slip-on.
Thanks!
Scott
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