A new engine for F1000??

[George Dean]

Hi, I have been playing today with a new 2011 ZX 10 Kawasaki, The motorcycle is all stock except for a slip on muffler and the ECU has been flashed. I also overlayed a graph of a stock GSXR 1000 motorcycle I had on my dyno a while ago for comparison

[Mike B]

But will it run in a car?


An RF99/Novak car to be specific.

[ASRF1000]

Excellent. Another engine manufacturer for F1000?

[Wren]

It has stock traction control, so it is not legal for FB.

George, I thought you could make a Honda run on your dyno but no one could make it run in a car. My guess is that there is a lot of work left to do to make this run in a car.

[George Dean]

Yes, This is just the first step, an oil system will need to be built then fitted in to a car and tested The electrical system looks alot more promising than the Honda. It looks like Kawasaki will sell these as crate engines so they can be purchaced new in boxes.
I wasnt aware that just because the motorcycle has a form of traction control it was not legal in FB. Does that mean that the 07-08-09-10-11 Suzuki with the 3 mode ECU is not legal either?

George

[Wren]

I wasnt aware that just because the motorcycle has a form of traction control it was not legal in FB. Does that mean that the 07-08-09-10-11 Suzuki with the 3 mode ECU is not legal either?

Traction control makes it illegal in FB per 9.3.2. I can't find a single bit of information that suggests the tri-mode ECU is traction control, only different ECU maps. I don't know about the 09 ECU's

[Fred Michael]

Since traction control was not installed by an AUTOMOBILE manufacturer, 9.3.2 does not apply.

[JohnPaul]

Im pretty sure i read that the traction control can be completely disengaged on the 2011 ZX10. I'll look into it again.

edit: see link below. one of the settings allow the TC to be completely disabled:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/157/85...irst-Ride.aspx

[Rick Kean]

No Slip% Sensor Inputs = No Ninja BlackBox Traction Control

Rick

[Wren]

Since traction control was not installed by an AUTOMOBILE manufacturer, 9.3.2 does not apply.

Good luck with that. As we all learned recently, rules have intent.

No Slip% Sensor Inputs = No Ninja BlackBox Traction Control

Rick

If it will run without the wheel speed sensors, then that would be an easy fix. That is a really big "if." Motorcycle electronics are getting incredibly complicated and I wouldn't count on it working without the wheel speed sensors.

[VehDyn]

Here's a question or two.

Who has the burden of proof? If someone protested and said "I think competitor X has traction control because that engine had it when it was in a motorcycle"; who has the burden? Will the tech guy say prove that you don't or will the protestor have to prove that they do. Will showing that you have no rear sensors be enough? Will it have to be demonstrated some way?

Don't TC and ESC have to be defeated on every car in the SS and Touring classes? What is their burden?

[Rick Kean]

If it will run without the wheel speed sensors, then that would be an easy fix. That is a really big "if." Motorcycle electronics are getting incredibly complicated and I wouldn't count on it working without the wheel speed sensors.

Agreed; if so, run both sensors on the same wheel...

Rick

[starkejt]

Here's a question or two.

Who has the burden of proof? If someone protested and said "I think competitor X has traction control because that engine had it when it was in a motorcycle"; who has the burden? Will the tech guy say prove that you don't or will the protestor have to prove that they do. Will showing that you have no rear sensors be enough? Will it have to be demonstrated some way?

Don't TC and ESC have to be defeated on every car in the SS and Touring classes? What is their burden?

9.3.2. ACTIVE SUSPENSIONS AND TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEMS
Active suspensions and traction control systems, as installed by the automobile
manufacturer and unmodified, are allowed only in Touring, Showroom
Stock, and STO.

[JohnPaul]

how about just hitting the switch? I has settings on a switch, all you need to do is put set it to no TC.

BTW: I don't think a TC system designed for a Motorcycle would even be usable on car application so even if it was on there would be no advantage, it wouldn't work.

[RobLav]

But Josh, the Kawasaki is not an automobile. That rule cannot apply.

[starkejt]

But Josh, the Kawasaki is not an automobile. That rule cannot apply.

I was responding to Ken asking if they had to disable TC for SS or Touring.

[Wright D]

It looks like the GSXR has more area under the curve.....

[RussMcB]

It looks like the GSXR has more area under the curve.....

I guess it depends on where your curve starts. I'd choose sprockets that allowed me to stay over 11,400 RPM. :-).

[Fred Michael]

But Josh, the Kawasaki is not an automobile. That rule cannot apply.

EXACTLY!!

[Tom Valet]

Since traction control was not installed by an AUTOMOBILE manufacturer, 9.3.2 does not apply.

But Josh, the Kawasaki is not an automobile. That rule cannot apply.

You are misreading the GCR section. Traction control is only allowed in Touring, Showroom Stock and STO and in those classes only as it was installed by the Automobile manufacturer. In all other classes it is prohibited regardless of who installed it.

[George Dean]

The dyno runs were done with both K-Trac wheel sensors disconnected, It did give me fault codes on the dash but didnt seem to change the way the bike ran on the dyno, The next step for me is to get an engine here build a wire harness and see how it runs out side of the motorcycle.
I am still looking for the rule that says that if the motorcycle has a form of traction control the engine cannot be used

George

[starkejt]

I think Tom has the interpretation that would apply regardless of any logical arguments about how it is worded. I'm sure the appropriate officials would claim that the "intent" was to only allow unmodified, factory traction control for the listed classes. But as I said above, I only quoted the rule to point out that Showroom Stock and Touring classes don't have to worry about disabling traction control.

I think George has a point though. Just because the complete motorcycle has traction control, does that necessarily mean you can't use the engine from it?

[R. Pare]

9.3.2. ACTIVE SUSPENSIONS AND TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEMS
Active suspensions and traction control systems, as installed by the automobile manufacturer and unmodified, are allowed only in Touring, ShowroomStock, and STO.

Depending on how you interpret the modifier phrase ("as installed by the manufacturer"), you could interpret this paragraph in many ways:

1 - Traction control systems are not allowed in any classes except Touring, SS, and STO, and in those classes it must be installed as by the manufacturer.

2 - Manufacturer-installed TC is allowed only in T, SS, and STO. Traction control systems are allowed in the other classes as long as they are not as installed by the manufacturer.

3 - This is not an automobile-engined class, therefore the rule does not apply.

I kinda like interpretations #2 and #3.

[allof6]

The dyno runs were done with both K-Trac wheel sensors disconnected, It did give me fault codes on the dash but didnt seem to change the way the bike ran on the dyno, The next step for me is to get an engine here build a wire harness and see how it runs out side of the motorcycle.
I am still looking for the rule that says that if the motorcycle has a form of traction control the engine cannot be used

George

George,
There is not a rule prohibiting the use of the motor because it came with TC the rule only makes the use of TC illegal. You being the tech guy should know that (LOL). If that where the case every late model engine would be illegal because TC is in the ECU not every manufacture chooses to use it.

It also needs to be explained that the kit motor offered by Kawasaki is just a long block. NO injection, no electronics, no air box etc. It would be cheaper to buy a complete bike.

Thanks

[Brett Lane]

I am not big on reading rules, but the way I see 9.3.2 is that it refers to cars that were built by auto manufacturers originally designed as street cars. It allows for certain cars that came out of the factory with traction control to run in certain classes, probably because it would cause more problems if people had to disable them to run as them as a race car.

I don't see traction control mentioned anywhere else for any formula or sports racer categories. That being said, I don't see any problem running a motocycle engine that originally HAD traction control installed in a motorcycle. If you can disable it effectively.

My 2 cents

[George Dean]

The crate engines should come with throttle bodies and airbox with all of the injectors installed, (I will check on this though) You still need to buy wire harness, ECU, voltage regulator, and a couple of other things

George

[Wren]

I think it would be legal if you completely disabled the TC and not just with a switch.

We should also remember that the crb got their panties in such a wad over the possibility that someone in the future might have automatic shifting that they had to ban the electronic shifters used by most cars in the field. Based on that logic, they should definitely ban any engine that came out of a bike with traction control.

[Dave Welsh]

Does the Kawasaki traction control operate only when the bike is leaning in a curve, or does it operate full time.

I had a discussion with the owner of a local Ducati dealer about the traction control on Ducati's He told me the traction control on Ducati bikes only operate while the bike is leaning.

[JerryH]

George, do you have any idea what the projected cost of the kaw crate engine will be?

Thanks,

Jerry Hodges

[George Dean]

I think the price will be around $5800.00

George

[Alex Pate]

George if you had the traction control connector disconnected and you got fault codes is it not possible that the ecu sent the motor into limp mode and affected your power output readings?

This thing needs a spell check at 1 am on an iphone

[George Dean]

Alex, I dont think so, According to the shop manual if the wheel speed signals are not present the K Trac feature turns its self off, I will find out soon, I will have an engine, harness and ECU in my shop this week.


George

[billwald]

Awesome George, please keep us posted. Although I am very satisfied with your Suzuki engines, it's nice to see alternatives. Thanks for what you do for all of us!

[JohnPaul]

George, any updates on the ZX10 engine experiment? are they available for car application yet?

[HastyHorn]

I don't believe that the issue of whether a bike that comes with Traction Control would make it illegal for FB as long as the system is missing the speed sensor input. Even then the bike parameters for what would constitute realistic traction control for a bike would not translate well to the traction needs of the same engine mounted in a four wheeled chassis.

If sales trends continue more and more donor vehicles will be offered with traction control. Note that the same model can be offered with TC or without (ala the BMW 1000), so determining whether the donor engine came from a bike with or without TC would be problematic.

The Common Market is considering mandating traction control for all street machines.

Hasty Horn

[ASRF1000]

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't a motorcycle traction control unit controlled by its computer with sensors at both wheels determining each wheels rate of speed? If the rear wheel begins to spin at a greater rate of speed than the front, the computer retards the engine?

If that is so, and an FB's wheel speed sensors are not hooked into the ecu, but rather just the data system. there will be no opportunity for any of the motorcycle's traction control to be utilized. Of course, maybe some ingenious engineer can come up with a way to make it work.

Maybe this is just a simple equation and correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am not correct, an other option is to just mandate wheel speed sensors to be disconnected during qualifying and races altogether. Very easy to police that in post race tech. Just a thought....don't shoot the messenger.

The real issue isn't whether the motorcycle had traction control, its whether the FB car has traction control. If it doesn't, its legal.

[VehDyn]

Lets just hope it doesn't use the sensor fault (assuming sensors disconnected) as an issue to put the ECU in a limp mode with low rev limit. This is not a rules problem, but a performance issue. These systems wil be more and more difficult to handle as the communication system implementation become more advanced with more failsafes.

[JohnPaul]

every new bike will come with TC built in so the questions are:

1) does TC on a motorcycle come into play and translate to TC in a our cars: NO WAY

2) can the engine work correctly and not go into limp mode if TC is disconnected:

The dyno runs were done with both K-Trac wheel sensors disconnected, It did give me fault codes on the dash but didnt seem to change the way the bike ran on the dyno, The next step for me is to get an engine here build a wire harness and see how it runs out side of the motorcycle.
I am still looking for the rule that says that if the motorcycle has a form of traction control the engine cannot be used

George

I don't think a motorcycle engine with a stock TC should and will be an issue. Now if someone develops a standalone system designed to be used for cars like ours, that's obviously not legal.

[Rick Kean]

if both of the bike's two traction control speed sensors are mounted on and reading from the same F1000 wheel, then haven't we effectively eliminated the possibility of any wheel to wheel speed differential signal being analyzed for traction control set points by the bike's ECU? Therefore, no traction control functionality is possible from said ECU; period.



How else does one sense incipient traction loss than by sensing F-R speed differences?

Is my take on this issue too short sighted?

At some point defeating the OEM ECU engineers will be more trouble than it's worth, and we and/or Series Organizers will need to choose a TC-incapable aftermarket ECU.

Rick

[Daryl DeArman]

if both of the bike's two traction control speed sensors are mounted on and reading from the same F1000 wheel

On that note, I wonder how accurate those speed sensors are...if they are off .005% from each other the ECU may interpret that as .005% slip and reduce power until they send the same signal I wonder what the threshold is before the ECU decides there is wheelspin sufficient to cut power? I would imagine it is well beyond the tollerance/accuracy issues.
Then there is the issue with the F/R wheels being different sized, are the sensors calibrated accordingly or are the rings sized accordingly?