Glenn,
When "it" was 16 and I was going to driver coach I went to the outside bleachers in T17 ( i recommend this spot for an exciting limited race view) after one session of seeing the car crash into "the bump" get airborne and just miss the outside wall I decided to watch from other corners. T1 and T17 driven hard and well give a real feel how the F1 maniacs from the early 70's plied their craft. Racing should be dangerous but safe.
I know why I was not there but if I could have been for both I would have in a heart beat!
The worst part about reading this thread is that the entire time I have my oppinion in my head and then I read Cole Morgans post and its basicaly the exact thing of what I was thinking. I do not know if this is good or bad.....
I have not been to Sebring yet but I am looking foward to it so much! I can't wait to go flying into T1 and T17 an inch from the concrete & having the bumps be so bad that the steering wheel is nearly getting riped out of my hands! Any track I have been to that has bumps is great. It adds character to the track and makes you have to think and maybe drive it a bit different then what you would think, just like camber in a corner. It makes the cars move around on while braking and its just makes it more fun to me. I liked Moroso before it became PBIR because of the bumps ya the layout was a bit blah but the bumps made it kinda cool and thats because they were nothing major there. And then back to Sebring ya it does not have any elivation but it has everything else. Badass fast corners, long straights with a hairpin at the end, flowing sections and bumps to make it even more fun. I wish I could have driven the old Mid Ohio when it had all the bumps, high curbs etc but my parents did not get around to there second batch of kids early enough for that to happen
I have been to Homestead not to drive but to watch, and I understand why people do not role up with the location because of the longer tow & well ya... all the other negative aspects of the location.
"No balls no baby's!"
Once I got accustomed to the bumps I actually liked the track. Just viewed it as another challenge. 2 main reasons I didn't come down: last year was my 1st time and the weather was miserable....really pissed me off; for the time and cost I can do two double nat'ls closer to home (Rd Atl 3.5 hrs away and VIR 4 hrs away, Sebring 13-14 hrs away). I know the weather is usually much nicer and I was suffering here with 6 in of snow. However, the dear wife is going to appreciate Hawaii next week more than Sebring/Homestead. Then I get to spend the rest of the season bouncing between VIR and Rd Atl.
Andrew M. Cross, Jr.
The race weekend weather at both Sebring & Homestead rivaled anything that Hawaii will be able to throw at you. Sebring sunny & upper 60's/low70's. Homestead middle-upper 70's and sunny.Originally Posted by Drew 13
You guys say you want T17 and T1 repaved? Really? I swear the next thing I know there will be a thread on here proclaiming that everyone should receive a trophy for their participation. In fact, get rid of the silver National Winner stickers and give everyone National Participator stickers so no feelings get hurt.
Is this Kindergarten or Auto Racing? Sometimes I can't tell anymore over all the crying....
Just me and Crowe, but we are old and far removed from the youth movement that grew up playing the vid games where if you ball up the car all you have to do is spend some virtual money and get it fixed. Unless you count Atari's Pole Position!
I guess we just love to bitch about **** like this.
The level the track has degraded to should be an embarasment to any of us.
To hold our country's premier road racing event at a track where things like T17 exist is an embarasment to me as an American.
I can't think of any other tracks I have raced at that would allow something like this.
Any other place and it would be deemed unsafe, but if I'm hearing some of you guys, it's all about getting it right and not having anything to worry about.
It almost sounds a little 'machismo" to me.
Places like Rd Atl have bumpy bits, but you have to go over the curbing to get to 'em (T5), or Rd Am - run wide out of 5 or 14 for instance.
Not cryin', but doing the dog w/ head cocked to one side, as if to say "Huh?"
Coop,
You know what is un-American? Putting your good buddy in the grass on a restart on the exit of T1, very un-cool man, this isn't a video game!
On a side note, if I ball a car up, my season is over. No more checks from Papa Bear to fund this racing career. So I can respect the aspect of not wanting to tear up too much, but you know what? If you're tearing up equipment that badly, you're not doing it right.
Coop,
I really don't think this track has degraded, i think it has maintained it's really bad surface over the years.
Some of you guys need to Ranger Up.
(sorry. couldn't resist :-).
I really enjoyed my one and only trip to Sebring. It was so cool racing at a track I've seen on TV and read about for years. I hated to leave when the event was over.
Daytona is in the same category for me. I'm almost ashamed to say I have not yet raced there, and it's on my bucket list.
I'm sure Homestead is nice, but there's no real attraction pulling me down there.
Love Sebring, love the bumps. But like snow skiing, not everyone likes moguls. My car has held up incredibly well. 35+ races in three years on the Stohr there with no unusual issues.
I run 06's and low 07's on good days. The car eats it up.
The only changes I wish they would make is painting the start finish line with something other than Spam. It is a killer in the rain.
PS: I saw someone riding a scooter through the mens room....ahh Sebring.
Some Background
All - I'm an SRF driver and Asst RE of Central Florida Region. Been reading this thread with great interest. A couple comments - Sebring is what it is and I don't see the track repaving T1 and T17 anytime soon (if ever). As an SRF driver - I love it like it is - 17 and 1 are what separate the men from the boys on that track.
Sebring attendance - we ran the short course for many years because Skippy had the other side of the track occupied. When that changed (2003) we switched the national to the long course and attendance rose dramatically. It hit a peak of 340 in 2006 and declined thru 2009. In 2010 we made the event a Double National and we had decent attendance even tho the weather was horrid (I remember watching raindrops go "boink" on the bodywork when we were on the grid on Saturday - Florida raindrops are supposed to go "splat" not "boink"). Attendance this year was up substantially - 296 cars set a qualifying time for Saturday's races with 283 setting a time for Sunday.
Homestead attendance - was not as healthy as Sebring. However, the attendance among those that did both Sebring and Homestead was strong - it was the folks who were entered for Homestead only that had an unusual number of no-shows. How do you spell "lousy travelling weather all up the east coast" during the week before.
I ran both events - and other than the confusion getting into Homestead on Thursday evening, that was a pretty good event. Would have been nice to have more than 18 Spec Racers - but that track is a lot more difficult to master than it looks. And the brake zone for T1/2 is a blast - even in an SRF were getting there at around 125+.
For next year - as a CFR official I'm interested in what you all think the right combinations are for the two formula car groups. I'll be glad to discuss it with our race board but give me some suggestions and some reasons "why".
Lee Hill - SRF 72 and CFR Asst RE
Lee,
I think the run groups are fine. Homestead was the usual FF, F5 and FV and the numbers for Sebring dictated FM and FE being added. Seems to me, the majority of the problems came from the classes that are bitching about the groupings. There were lots of wings and diffusers spread around the track.
My problem with the Sebring run group has more to do with the mid pack winged cars, then the slower open wheel cars. I can qualify several seconds faster only to get out powered on the start and have to work hard to get by them and keep them behind. Not so much of a problem when we run the short course at regionals with all the formula cars because they only have one place to use their advantage.
John
Coop, you pulling off the wings????
Wha?
Why?
This...Coop, I'll put the Honda back in sans restrictor, you remove your wings and let's go head to head...bet youll be faster when you put the wings back on
As a grandson of one of the Sebring 12 hours founders. Sebring holds a special place, not only racing history, but in my family, and my own racing career. I cant help but feel a need to defend this place that I hold very dear.
For decades, automobile manufacturers have sent race cars and street cars to Sebring to test them to there limits. The track is iconic. Those 70 plus year old, air force laid run ways have service our country as Hendricks field, a WW2 bomber training base. There is your "Get American". And in its second life as a race track. Its a place where hundreds of thousands racers, like us, both amateur and professional alike have been challenge. With it's fast and slow corners and YES BUMPS. Personally, I prefer to think of them as thousands of small elevation changes every lap. It has character, which is something lacking so much in modern race tracks. It has history. Fangio, Moss, Gurney, Clark, I can go on, have raced over the bumps. I HOPE IT NEVER CHANGES. If you want a cookie cutter race track go to PBIR.
Also as long time Lead instructor for the Panoz Racing School and as a guy who grew up on this track. The old girl has her tricks. I ran a 2.04 in Bill Wald's Orange Stohr, as well in my F2000 Van Diemens, and even faster in big stuff. There is a smoother line. Some know it, a lot don't. I personally never had a problem with those, "reflectors" in 17. Turn 1 is not for the faint of heart, it's a challenge, but oh so rewarding when you get it right.
If you dont want to race here, ok. The rest of us will miss you. Your choice. If it scares you, Maybe you should buy golf clubs, or try IRacing.
Sorry to rant, but as a Smith, I feel it is my duty. The place has some patina, its worn around the egdes, and overall "I" think it is perfect. Long live Turn 17 and 1!
Doug
2005 Cooper Tires Zetec Championship #35 GTP Motorsports
Oopsie - musta really touched a nerve this time!
Ya know this thing is blown out of proportion - it's like listening to FOX News!
The whole reflector thing was only mentioned by me as the car would scrape going cross them, sweeping wide out of 17.
I realiaze I could have taken a tighter line, but this is the route I took - more than one way to skin a cat I guess.
"Problems" or "trouble" w/ the reflectors? No. I realise they are there to mark that a wall is coming up real quick for those running in the darkness of the 12 Hr.
I really get a kick out of the responses defending the "character" of the track, ie the craters and uneven pavement.
I liken it to a guy with a 67 Mustang w/ bondo all over the wheel arches and in the rocker panels. Yes - It's a classic, with a rich history, but really, you gonna put that thing in a car show?
Maybe I came across as too harsh on the subject, most folks who know me will tell you I'm anything but. The other's? "F" 'em!
The OP's question was why don't more folks come to this race.
You know Coop. We used to be friends, hell, I might have even waved to you as I passed by at the track. From now on, I'll just bring you a box of tissues.
Long Live T17 and T1!!!!
Well said colleague. When asked what are the most challenging corners ive driven, my answer is simply T17@ Sebring. Leave em bumpy and put some hair on your peaches.
Haha JR. That's how I feel with the atlantics. Well said though. Yeah it sucked running with FV, but I got over it.
You're drunk for most sessions, so you don't really have the same inhibitions about 17 and 1 as some other folks...
Thanks Cap'n Morgan
Please make it the kind w/ aloe; my lady parts 'preech the softness!
When asked which MX track I hold in most reverence - the answer's allways Sebring.
(Which I still like (damn it) and like my esteemed former FBro Russ McB mentioned earlier, ya just don't wanna go home on Sunday, esp this year w/ it being 79 degrees and Atl 12 hours north being covered in ice).
You guys are completely off the mark.
It's not about being a man, fuzz on the peaches, or rangering up.
We (ok, I) are (am) not scared of Sebring, simply answering the original question about why we would prefer to race elsewhere. Maybe it would have been better for me had I not been driving a monoshock car- not very good on bumps.
If you enjoy it by all means run there, just quit insulting those who prefer a smoother surface.
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
Doug, that was supposed to remain top secret! I've been telling people for two years that low 06's and maybe 05's was all the car had. You know, blaming aero, wide tires, etc. Now that you spilled the beans, I'm forced to step it up a bit.
Doug wrote: I ran a 2.04 in Bill Wald's Orange Stohr.
everyone has their favorite and least favorite tracks but like the saying goes "a bad day of racing is still better than a good day at work" so if it's a decision between racing on a track I don't like or doing something (anything) else that day I'm racing !
Everybody here has valid points. Sean, I can sympathize with the short comings of a Mono-shock Van Diemen. As you know I used to spend a lot of time in one. Glenn, sorry but the comment about Sebring being an embarrassment as an American touched a nerve. Its all good, we are allowed to express our opinions. We wont allows see eye to eye. But like I said that is cool.
As, well as a long time racer without money, I can sympathize with the idea that if the cars breaks, I cant race... John Anderson looked at me in disbelief on several occasions in post qualifying tech in the old Cooper Series. Because I was the mechanic as well as the driver.
This whole thread was started by Pops Morgan asking why everybody thought numbers are down.
Well, without sounding like a sermon. I think, "personally" there are several issues that could be causing it. First naturally is the our beloved hobby is based of disposable income, which many of us dont have much of. If its paying the health insurance or racing, well, you decide....
Also, having worked with many young drivers through coaching. There isnt a big push, (maybe needs to be from scca?) to make coming and racing at the club level more attractive in a formula car. It is a great place to learn and grow as a driver. Also you make alot of friends! Winning a Formula Ford National Title used to be an even bigger deal than it is now. We need to get the prestige back in it. We are all, me included not getting any younger.
The formula car fields up north are larger, so maybe the regions need to push more to sure up these classes. Start by not cutting down the formula car groups because there are more Spec Miatas. I can think of several ex-formula car guys who have jumped ship because they got more seat time and less cut races in a Miata. The cost isnt vastly different between the 2 types of cars on a whole.
There is the whole manufacture involvement thing. I am thrilled however that Honda and Ford are showing signs of pushing amateur and pro formula car racing, and not just at a pro level. Everybody at the F2000 and F1600 series are doing a great job with this, and look forward to working in that series all year. Exciting stuff.
As for the race tracks, they are what they are. Autobahn in Chicago is as bumpy as Sebring if not worse. Daytona just got a repave, and it is amazingly smooth now. Im sorry that there isnt a National in May there anymore. Road Atlanta, another race track I have spent alot of time at got a facelift a few years back. Barber, Homestead, (not PBIR) are all fun places to go when the snow is falling elsewhere.
My 10 cents. Hope i didnt tick anybody off. I love open wheel racing and racing when i can with all of you. Happiness is truly a Formula Car.
Doug
2005 Cooper Tires Zetec Championship #35 GTP Motorsports
Ages
One thing I commented on in Homestead was looking around in the drivers meeting was the age of everyone. Drivers were much older then I am used to seeing at our regional events. Might have been the time of year & location however I would hope to see more youth entering the sport.
Rough Tracks ......
A track with a "bump" or two .... yet they raced flat out !
Nurburgring '66 link:
http://www.f1-grandprixhistory.net/Germany.html
EJ
Last edited by Swift17; 01.23.11 at 9:42 PM. Reason: Remove pics for future posts .... see link
EJ, You are the man!
2005 Cooper Tires Zetec Championship #35 GTP Motorsports
Id like an 8x10 of that Stewart Hill photo. Awesome shot! I wonder if they were wearing huge grins during those moments or screaming Oh Momma!
Do you FEEL the bumps when you're two feet in the air?---Jim
Only when you land, if you don't have the right shock/spring package.
.... more flugplatz
... and for the wing fans ! Nurburgring '66
again removed pics for future posts -- see link:
http://www.f1-grandprixhistory.net/Germany.html
EJ
Last edited by Swift17; 01.23.11 at 9:46 PM. Reason: Remove pics for future posts ..... see link
Sean,
I don't think any insult was sent or intended. It may only be a flaw in our people skills down here but respect is only shown on the track. Off track banter anything goes.
Mr Morgan,
I thought in 2011 we are supposed to work on our people skills and be more PC.
Regards,
John
john,
If you will note one Morgan is polte and conciliatory, the other is just,well you know.
That ain' no bump
that's a damned JUMP!
I am however calling Photoshop on the top right b&w pic, it jus' don't look 100%.
Yes, I am a persnikity little so and so...
Crazy to believe they could get that much air!
Your're right, that's a cheesy photo shop job. Not sure why you'd bother doing that as it's spectacular enough as it is.
www.motorsportimage.co.uk - Dads website, and a couple books for interest!
http://www.amazon.com/Races-Faces-Pl...5570031&sr=8-1
http://www.palawan.co.uk/Book/Sixties
coop,
new idea for another SCCA open wheel class, what about F1000 low/high riders with hydraulics to do jumps and dips through corners.
Ya know...
we sure could use another class in the mix...
For an AARP member, you definitely have your finger on the pulse of the youngsters, I gotta give you credit!
For years the SCCA has been hashing and thrashing about what to do to bring in new blood - I think you hit it on the head in 1 shot.
Do it!
There I go trying to tone down the rhetoric and insults and you play the AARP card.The Swift is going back together and I promise to run as many tracks as I can when you're running. Call john Zuccarelli and ask how effective a blocker I can be. All my love Bro.
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