Formula SAE - Arizona State University

[TrackBrat]

I have been meaning to make this post for a longtime but the evil homework has been getting in the way.

Most of you know me and know my story, and if you don't well quickie is, I transferred to Arizona State University for the Fall 2010 Semester. I am far away from my normal stomping grounds of Cendiv, but I have to stay active with racing....or else I think I would lose my mind.

The team is pretty much starting from stractch this year due to last minute restructuring and such. I have pretty much jumped into the deep end you could say, but what else was I supposed to do? I love our sport.

I thought I would use this thread for various things. I am no engineer but I have been around racing all my life. Many of the members are engineers but never really been around racing, so sometimes slapping myself on the head is bound to occur.

I am going to try to keep this thread updated with our current progress on the project, time permitting of course.

We are working with pretty much lint in our pockets in the way of a budget, so we are trying to get the most out of our resources. Sadly I am one of the resources, I am amazed when I think of it.

If any of you have any tips, recommendations or even comments about anything; we would love to hear it. Even if it is just words of wisdom. If you or you know of anyone who has some equipment that might be thrown away, feel free to let us know.

Ok time to get back to my homework, I hate the end of semester chaos and workload.

Thanks,

Chris Buccola

[Will Velkoff]

This was my life last year, literally.

I was the team captain for Lafayette College, with a zillion hours and lots of hard work we finished 33rd at Michigan for only a 3rd year team! Good luck, and hopefully you can get to one of the competitions, it makes everything worth it.

Remember, keep the car small, light, and nimble while still keeping it reliable.

[bsiegel]

I have been the Team Principal and Chief Engineer at the University of Louisville for the past year. I have also been lucky enough to work on an F2000 team since earlier this summer. I echo everything Will has said. Just keep in mind, regardless of the weight and fancy widgets, the car has to 1. make it to competition 2. pass tech 3. finish all the events. That alone will get you in the top 30% no problem. However the hardest part is just getting it done and getting it there.

Feel free to PM me if you have any detailed questions. I would be happy to help provide feedback.

[TrackBrat]

Thanks for the tips of advice. I am going to have the Team captain and our second in charge make accounts on apex so they can do some work also

I have been having the same mindset with most of your tips. I have also been coming up with some crazy ideas or just things I have observed or learned for growing up and being at the track for 24 years.

I was wondering how much did you guys focus on aero? I have some ideas on aero for the car. There are of course many limitations, biggest are just time and money.

I am sure there is more I like to ask but feel free to add more. I hope we can get more the FSAE community involved with apexspeed.

[Mark_Silverberg]

My advice for any first year team is to function on two areas
1) A simple mechanical design which will get you through all elements of the competition reliably.
2) Show up to all parts of the competition to gain experience and maximize the points.

Do not do anything complicated with engine, bodywork, or construction techniques for the first year. Plan something attainable which can get through the entire competition. A design with complex features which does not get finished or has no testing so it breaks right away is no good.

Show up to all elements of the competition - document your experiences and feedback to that you can have some organizational learning. The problem with FSAE teams is that they have 100% turn over after 5 years. You have to document everthing so the experiences are not lost. I have been a FSAE presentation judge for 15+ years the thing that most people do not realize about the presentation event is that you do not even need a car to do well - you just have to present the concept of your car, a marketing position and some manufacturing basics to get nearly all the points (if you do a good job). There is no reason a first year team can not do well in this event.

Ultimately, however, most teams participate in FSAE to build and drive a car - not because of the static events. The number one priority should be to build a car that will actually get finished so you can drive it!

[Will Velkoff]

Thanks for the tips of advice. I am going to have the Team captain and our second in charge make accounts on apex so they can do some work also

I have been having the same mindset with most of your tips. I have also been coming up with some crazy ideas or just things I have observed or learned for growing up and being at the track for 24 years.

I was wondering how much did you guys focus on aero? I have some ideas on aero for the car. There are of course many limitations, biggest are just time and money.

I am sure there is more I like to ask but feel free to add more. I hope we can get more the FSAE community involved with apexspeed.

For you guys, I would not spend time on Aero. Main reason being that the competition is 95% of the time <45mph. Sure, a good aero design will impress the judges and fellow competitors, but on the track I'm not totally sold that it's worth the time investment for a new team. Some of the big name schools have their programs so well developed so they are squeezing for that extra tiny advantage, and that's where Aero starts getting looked at. But at the low speeds you see in the competition, I would think the gains are minimal. Don't get me wrong though, from a design standpoint, it's a great learning excercise.

Definitely focus on getting that suspension dialed it, and work hard throughout to make sure the car will be reliable.

And now comes my personal opinion on the most important part of preparing for the competition:

SEAT TIME! Get that car in race ready form 45 days before you ship off to competition so you can get drivers selected for each event and start getting them time in the car so they are fully ready to drive the car on the edge at the competition. Not to mention there will be problems that will need to be shaken out during testing, so you need to leave time to catch the problems and possibly fix/remake some parts.

Our car wasn't the fastest one there, but I'll tell you what, we got a lot of testing in and found a few problems that would have been pretty serious if they occurred at competition. Our car finished all events and we drove it pretty hard so it clicked off some respectable lap times, especially in the endurance race.

Hope this helps.

[SCOTTY81]

Chris.

I started our SAE program around 10 years ago, This year I am over 300 teams world wide.We make an entire line of drive line products just for FSAE.
Let me know if there are any drawings of our FSAE products I can help you with .

scotty

[Wren]

My advice for any first year team is to function on two areas
1) A simple mechanical design which will get you through all elements of the competition reliably.
2) Show up to all parts of the competition to gain experience and maximize the points.

Do not do anything complicated with engine, bodywork, or construction techniques for the first year. Plan something attainable which can get through the entire competition. A design with complex features which does not get finished or has no testing so it breaks right away is no good.

Show up to all elements of the competition - document your experiences and feedback to that you can have some organizational learning. The problem with FSAE teams is that they have 100% turn over after 5 years. You have to document everthing so the experiences are not lost. I have been a FSAE presentation judge for 15+ years the thing that most people do not realize about the presentation event is that you do not even need a car to do well - you just have to present the concept of your car, a marketing position and some manufacturing basics to get nearly all the points (if you do a good job). There is no reason a first year team can not do well in this event.

Ultimately, however, most teams participate in FSAE to build and drive a car - not because of the static events. The number one priority should be to build a car that will actually get finished so you can drive it!

That is all great advice.

The most important thing about the car is getting it done. Get it done in time to test it, break it, and get your drivers some seat time.

If people are serious about wanting to drive then they need to be hitting every autocross they can find in a 150 mile radius with their street car. The best feature on our car was my quiet, mousy roommate that was dead serious about autocrossing and had been for a long time. He drove a very mediocre car to 8th place in the autocross competition.

[SCOTTY81]

Wren hit that on the head....
I see too many team show up to competition with very little driver training.They do great in the static events. But then destroy the car in the dynamic events do to lack of seat time and driver training.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Alternately they team may chose to do their training on a kart before the FSAE car is completed. There are plenty of old kart chassis available and the "clone" class engines (Chinese Honda knock off ) are cheap and durable and offer reasonable performance. Kart track time is relatively reasonable and available.

[TrackBrat]

Thanks for the tips guys, I will pass on the words of wisdom to the team.

One thing I am curious for a personal reason is, how did you cope with the project and still stay focused on your school work? Once we have a physical start of the car, I have a feeling the car will be calling to me while I am even sleeping. Not a murder film plot but a similar idea lol.


One thing I do not like that I have seen with a lot of FSAE cars is the steering column. Many of them are designed like a go-kart with the column between your legs. Did you guys follow a similar design? I would really like to make it like a real race car for practical and safety reasons. Being a corner worker, the safety of the driver is one thing that I am serious about. I know it is an autocross type of competition, but it is best to be prepared for the unexpected. A car can end up where ever it wants to, no matter what the obsticle.

For the cockpit, I like the idea of a more enclosed design with as little of the driver showing while in seating position. Other designs have a large open area where the drivers side is exposed. What are you thoughts on this?

[K.Sampson]

Thanks for the tips guys, I will pass on the words of wisdom to the team.

One thing I am curious for a personal reason is, how did you cope with the project and still stay focused on your school work? Once we have a physical start of the car, I have a feeling the car will be calling to me while I am even sleeping. Not a murder film plot but a similar idea lol.

Have a long think about what you want to do with your life and what you enjoy doing. Pick your priorities from there. Personally, I focused on the car and let school slip. Whenever I reflect on my past I see many places where I wish I had worked harder, but getting a A in heat transfer instead of a C isn't one of them...

One thing I do not like that I have seen with a lot of FSAE cars is the steering column. Many of them are designed like a go-kart with the column between your legs. Did you guys follow a similar design?

I Did. If you start the design at the wheels and work your way in the steering shafts tend to end up with some interesting bends. Feel free to come up with something better, and then take joy in other teams copying you.

I would really like to make it like a real race car for practical and safety reasons. Being a corner worker, the safety of the driver is one thing that I am serious about. I know it is an autocross type of competition, but it is best to be prepared for the unexpected. A car can end up where ever it wants to, no matter what the obsticle.

For the cockpit, I like the idea of a more enclosed design with as little of the driver showing while in seating position. Other designs have a large open area where the drivers side is exposed. What are you thoughts on this?

I know it looks safer. After having designed, built, and ran and enclosed design I now recommend an open design. My guess for the biggest safety hazzard in FSAE is the student built fuel system bursting into flames and a very inexperienced driver forgetting how to get out of the car. The open cars are much easier for a paniced FSAE driver to get out of. You don't get t-boned in solo racing.

Cheers,

-Kyle

[Dick R.]

Chris,

I know nothing about car design or FSAE constraints, etc. However, in response to a couple of your design questions here are some pictures of my 85 Van Diemen Formula Ford that might be applicable. Note the high mounted behind the spindle location of the steering rack and the front springs. This car is a copy of the Swift DB-1 but with side radiators and, of course, lots of other detail differences. Note that "exposed" radiator(s) are a cooling advantage for autox if you need to cool when not moving between runs/sessions.

FYI if you have never heard of him, you might check the "past champions" archives of FSAE for Todd Bowland. Also the past SCCA A Mod winners for him. He went from school to a few teams like Newman Hass, Ganassi, and Rahal and then to I believe Joe Gibbs in Nascar.

Dick
85 VD

[K.Sampson]

For you guys, I would not spend time on Aero. Main reason being that the competition is 95% of the time <45mph. Sure, a good aero design will impress the judges and fellow competitors, but on the track I'm not totally sold that it's worth the time investment for a new team. Some of the big name schools have their programs so well developed so they are squeezing for that extra tiny advantage, and that's where Aero starts getting looked at. But at the low speeds you see in the competition, I would think the gains are minimal. Don't get me wrong though, from a design standpoint, it's a great learning excercise.

[FONT=Verdana]It is definitely not worth it for an any team to take resources away from other parts of the car to develop an aero program. Most of the "big name schools" that run aero do it because they have the people and facilities for it. I know our key aero personnel didn't want to work on other parts of the car. They were at school to learn aerodynamics and if they couldn't work on aero then they wouldn't have joined the team. Also, the design judges tend to hate aero.[/FONT]

Definitely focus on getting that suspension dialed it, and work hard throughout to make sure the car will be reliable.

And now comes my personal opinion on the most important part of preparing for the competition:

SEAT TIME! Get that car in race ready form 45 days before you ship off to competition so you can get drivers selected for each event and start getting them time in the car so they are fully ready to drive the car on the edge at the competition. Not to mention there will be problems that will need to be shaken out during testing, so you need to leave time to catch the problems and possibly fix/remake some parts.

Our car wasn't the fastest one there, but I'll tell you what, we got a lot of testing in and found a few problems that would have been pretty serious if they occurred at competition. Our car finished all events and we drove it pretty hard so it clicked off some respectable lap times, especially in the endurance race.

Hope this helps.

X2

Cheers,

-Kyle

[bsiegel]

Thanks for the tips guys, I will pass on the words of wisdom to the team.

One thing I am curious for a personal reason is, how did you cope with the project and still stay focused on your school work? Once we have a physical start of the car, I have a feeling the car will be calling to me while I am even sleeping. Not a murder film plot but a similar idea lol.


One thing I do not like that I have seen with a lot of FSAE cars is the steering column. Many of them are designed like a go-kart with the column between your legs. Did you guys follow a similar design? I would really like to make it like a real race car for practical and safety reasons. Being a corner worker, the safety of the driver is one thing that I am serious about. I know it is an autocross type of competition, but it is best to be prepared for the unexpected. A car can end up where ever it wants to, no matter what the obsticle.

For the cockpit, I like the idea of a more enclosed design with as little of the driver showing while in seating position. Other designs have a large open area where the drivers side is exposed. What are you thoughts on this?

Answer 1: The way many of us coped with the project was we didn't. For many of us the car became much more important than school. Both to our advantage and of course sometimes not so much. I will say being truly engulfed in FSAE has the ability to heighten your understanding of the classroom presentations to the point where you can understand the subject sometimes better than the professor. I attended a Claude Rouelle seminar on suspension design as I was beginning the design of our own car while simultaneously I was taking a vehicle dynamics class at school. As far as class applied to a racecar those of us that attended the seminar knew it better than the professor. In short you always have to keep a balance. School will slip away some weeks ( or even moths and potentialy semesters) and so will the car. Just do your best to keep the team motivated and working continuously. FYI finals week is always slow for everyone, however the week after finals is always full of 18- 20 hour days.

Answer 2: Priority #1 in the steering is to pass the rules. Watch out for the cockpit template. #2 make sure it turns the wheels (i.e. it does its job) #3 keep it simple. No need to have 3 universal joints when 1 will do. Compliance is huge here, easy to come by easy to mess things up, and usually easy to get rid of. Also keep it simple from a kinematic standpoint. As a first year team start with a parallel steering configuration, once you think you understand that you can try to determine what type of ackerman geometry you need (positive or negative or if any!)

Answer 3: As a driver I like to sit IN the car, not be engulfed by it. I also don't want to sit ,what I call, "ON" the car. This, for me, is when I have such little side protection and such a vertical seating position I feel like I am riding a skateboard. Saftey should be your first priority here (obviously in addition to meeting the rules, once again watch out for the cockpit templates and what can and cant be removed for the test.) The 2011 rules address this particular subject further than in previous years.

Just to reiterate what may have said about Aero. Step 1 for a new team and making the car faster by design...minimize rolling resistance and increase mechanical grip first. At FSAE, aero is quite literally a band-aid covering up bad driving techniques and habits. If aero was everything those cars would win every competition. They in fact do not. You win by finishing all the events and knowing your stuff, not just in F=MA terms but stating what you have tried, what you have broken, learning why it broke, and why your change made you faster.

However, above all the biggest variable in lap times is the driver. SEAT TIME SEAT TIME SEAT TIME!

[TrackBrat]

We are slowing making forward progress. We just returned from winter break. Some students stayed in the area to continue to work on the car. We have been cutting pipes and getting ready to assemble the chassis hopefully.

A few members recently attended the Double National at PIR, and we came away with a big score. I think we came away with 26 tires that would have been discarded. They should be fine for our needs at the moment, and at least provide the ability for the car to be pushed around and transported.

[TrackBrat]

It has been a long time since our last update. It is this annoying thing called classes that get in the way of progress. Thought I would link some pictures up.

[marshall9]

Looks great. From drawings, you may want to check driver's foot position in relation to front hub centers for safety if you are planning to test the car with a scnctioned group, might have sone tech issue there, Keep up the good work.
Marshall