I think that was the biggest problem at the runoffs. If you just go to the Geartronics website, they show all of these great capabilities they have that would not be legal for FB. Seeing that, it was reasonably assumed that the units on the FB grid had the same capability. Once that was cleared up everything seemed to be ok.Originally Posted by Quickshoe
It never even came up at the meeting.
Yes Wren I drive DSR. You see the irony in my comment about out spending the next guy too huh?!?
I can't afford to waste 5 grand on a shifter im saving my pennies for one of those built time bombs oops I mean engines!
-Keegan
I still believe Brandon had one of the cheaper cars on the grid. There are cars on the grid selling for $75k/car.
Don't forget the money for your carbon body.
I don't cuz it's fiberglass! hahaha
-Keegan
it's a club racing... difference in lap times should be based on driver skills and car setup (suspension setting, wing angles, alignment, brake bias, tire choice, chosen gear ratio...)
engine and transmission damage prevention is brilliant but you guys have to stop hiding lap time advantage of closed loop shifters behind it... Brandon was very honest about it
that's what the rules are for... to prevent implementation of different systems resulting in wider performance spread... something has to be done about new engines before it's too late... hire Mr Dean and develop restrictors to keep engines within a certain horse power limit
don't take me wrong... development is great... but is fb class place for development race, how far do we want to go and where do we want to go?
i would hate to drive dominant car and have boring races... of course, fast guys are always going to be fast... even 2 seconds behind the fastest car is still fast but is it fast enough... and even if you just think it's result of different systems it's discouraging for class entrants
as a driver i would always choose the class where car performance doesn't depend on pocket ability, where lap times are the closest, initial investment is acceptable and value of the car does not go down because newer cars come with advantage giving systems...
that logic, i think, would bring more people to the class... more people means more demand for new cars...
development should go different way... make it easier to work on the car for example or work on front/rear ideal weight ratio or slicker body...
so far development is focused on finding the engine that will provide more horses, having shifter that will do as much as possible fast thinking for driver and discovering implicit rules to allow discrepancy in dimensions of performance providing elements
hey lets leave all the carbon body work out of this thread. i do believe it is supposed to be about the shifter as stated by the thread title. btw the new body i built for the stohr fb has fiberglass side pods that weigh 3.5lbs and each floor, front to end of diffuser weighs 4.5lbs, and the coolers just sit on the floor and are enclosed/ducted by the pods, so no additional weight. the car with dry sump weighs 785lbs with seat in, radio and enough gas to finish a race and that is with over 10lbs of extra glass, kevlar, and filler in the center section and cockpit sides from modification. so how much weight reduction is really to be gained by making them in carbon? sorry, now i am doing it. lets stick to the shifter. i agree with most all of you, and if you sit and reread all of this(has taken me all day to catch up!) you are all correct. the shifter is legal per the current rules, but i see rennies logic on how the rules CAN make future, more sophisticated systems also legal, so????? as for the engines, and new engines and involved cost, if it were not for whom ever spent the first money getting a gixxer to run in a dsr, you would all be running old R1's this is what the mc classes are all about, and is what attracts people to the class, not low cost, we have fv, f500, fm, and the list goes on if you want a cheap class. and define cheap/inexpensive, just because one guy builds a car in his garage or backyard for $15k does not mean all cars in said class should cost that much. specifically on brandons question about future mc engines with traction control, yes that motor would be illegal, unless, like someone else said, you could tune that out with piggy back devise, how do you police that? easy, cross that bridge when we get to it, right now lets focus on issue at hand, and that is with current rules exploitation, do the masses see a problem and see it fit for rule changes? take some votes/polls and see where people stand. the dsr guys fight it out every year, and few if any rules have been changed. they all just showed up with all guns blazing and set some fast times! i will say what i said in those battles, do you really think that if you had those components, it will make the difference? i mean would you have beaten brandon if you had the shifter, or your floor was a few inches wider? if so, get after it. i will give you a hint, get rid of those giant front wing flaps, or atleast the 40* of angle they are at. as for the body work in front of the tires, my first thought was "those cant be considered body work" but wren posted the rule as it is written, and those are body work. even the "2x4" is body work. no different then the flappy bits around the stohr rear tires. now back to the geartronics shifter as the thread title suggests!
did i miss something? were not the top 3 cars or more all running 07-08 gsxr motors?? why are we making a big deal about motors that are not even working yet? hell, in 3 years, it may cost more to get a gsxr motor and have it rebuilt then it would cost to buy a then 2 year old bmw motor??
Are you at front running speeds when you are "dropping 5 gears in hard braking no problem"?.This is ridiculous. We are racing cars and not playing video games correct? Auto down blip? Whats wrong with your right foot doing the blipping? What's next ABS and traction control? Is this like Gran Turismo can I turn all the driving aids on?! I want to out drive the next guy on the grid not out spend him. If your havng trouble downshifting maybe you need to get a Stohr paddle shifter with 1 cable. I have no problems dropping 5 gears in a hard braking zone.
-Keegan
[FONT=Verdana]That statement is just downright condescending and rude. Even though you are saying one thing to Dixon because he called you out on it you basically insinuated in your statement that Dixon wouldn't have won a national championship without a shifter? I'm sure you're one of those guys that couldn't beat any of the front running guys with or without a shifter.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]It seems like all the complaints are coming from 1) the slower guys that can't understand why they are in the back and 2) Canadians: In our family we call our Canadian relatives the "Canadian Birds" because all you hear out of their mouth is cheap cheap cheap! only joking! lol [/FONT]
BTW: would anybody be complaining if these shifter systems cost $200 instead of $2000+?
Last edited by JohnPaul; 09.30.10 at 7:54 AM.
Calm down there pal. Yeah I consider myself pretty quick. 48's around the Glen isn't slow and I didn't see anyone diving under me in the bus stop chicane dropping 6th to 2nd. It's a driving aid, an expensive one too. It's legal in my class (DSR) but few use it. Id rather spend the $ on HP, aero, tires etc. Don't imply that I was taking anything away from Brandon. I think he could have won without it. Personal attacks on someone you don't even know, now thats classy!
-Keegan
sorry to jump down your throat. but your comments are pretty insulting, you make it sound like anyone running a system is a p**sy. This debate has me heated, I just spend a bunch of $ and time getting my system right and unless someone plans on paying me back what I spent I'm running this system legal or not, let them disqualify me every time.
hehe... by the way i'm croatian... please inform me about the class that would fit my nationality... so far i'm down to my bike... pedaled one
Just curious, but how does a $5k shift system compare to the budget of putting together some of those whizzy Stohr DSRs I see. Not necessarily yours, but some of them. How much do some of those guys spend when they get obsessive about weight reduction? Did those guys not outspend you? Running in a class as open as DSR, you have to have noticed that there will always be someone who outspends you. You may have also noticed that they don't necessarily win just because of it. There are spec classes available for those that want to have every driver using the same equipment. Believe it or not, some people like being able to play around with stuff like this shifter. I understand the argument that the shifter is an aid for the driver, but I can't understand any argument that it should be disallowed because it is expensive. It's not even in the ballpark of the most expensive thing on some FBs.
If that is how you feel, then FB is not the class for you. There are other classes that can meet your needs quite well, such as FE or FM.
What Rick said. I think the original intent was an economical class based on cheap, readily available motorcycle engines and gearboxes, but it's gone way beyond that already. I don't have exact numbers, but by my rough calculations building a competitive FB car is already pricier than FC, and it's probably going to surpass FA soon. Not sure about running costs.
I'm a fan of technology, though, and if that's what FB racers want, more power to them. I appreciate what Brandon has done with his car, and I'm sure he has other ideas in the pipeline!
It's also worth pointing out that in any racing class, expenses will rise to meet available resources. Look at the IRL, which are supposedly "spec" cars, and how much money Penske and Ganassi spend. If someone spent the money (and/or time) to do proper aero development within the FB rules, the lap time benefit would make shifter systems and stand alone ECUs irrelevant. How are you going to prevent that? Ban CFD and wind tunnels?
Nathan
Cough, cough (bull****) cough
Nathan, seriously? For under 30k someone could snap up a Novak VD or Hill's car, complete w/ spares aplenty and be at the front.
Soon to surpass FA? Yeah I guess if the FA in question is 15-20 yrs. old and is timed out on all components and needs 20 large thrown at it immediately prior to turning a wheel, then yeah - soon to surpass FA.
Not to mention, last time I looked, the faster classes cost more, so why not just say a top FB costs 3x's as much as a good FM?
'Scuse me must be acatchin' a cold, cough, bull****, cough...
Coop
i thought you wanted more cars per race in fb class
Yes, but at the same time, most of us don't want FVs with spec carbed motorcycle engines either. There is a balance to be found somewhere in there. IMO, part of what makes this class cool is the performance and the ability to play around with all sorts of stuff, not just shifters. It's not just about getting the most cars. If it was, we'd just copy the spec miata rules.
The key phrase is a "competitive FB car" and I probably should have said "competitive at the Runoffs." I walked around the paddock at the runoffs and looked pretty carefully at a lot of FB cars and very carefully at Brandon's (while talking with him about some of the things he's done).
What do you think it would cost to buy Brandon's car if he were in the business of making and selling them? (Charging something reasonable for his time, not building them for the love of the sport.) How much does an RFR cost with all the bells and whistles (Geartronics shifter, latest motor, dry sump system, etc)?
You can always find good deals on used cars, since the nature of this business is you can never recover the money you invest in a car! (Unless you win something big and it's historic.)
My figures may be off, but not by much...and the costs are only going to go up.
By the way, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just making an observation. As a techno geek, I enjoy watching the development of the class.
Nathan
Just saw the doc
my cold's only a scratchy throat.
That's what I figured ya meant NU, but ya know there's all this "intent" lately getting tossed around like 18 month olds on AFV.
GC
On edit, I'd still put a "converted" car with the latest bits (floor w/ funny triangles included) capable of running at the front. Isn't that kinda what the Citation is anyway?
Last edited by glenn cooper; 09.30.10 at 9:52 AM.
Don't look at me, my damn go kart cost me a ton!hehe... by the way i'm croatian... please inform me about the class that would fit my nationality... so far i'm down to my bike... pedaled one
Coop: you are the perfect example, how many people have you stomped on without any fancy shifter?? Didnt you tell me you won the championship last year with a piece of rope tied around your hand to shift?
As Brandon said, you lose consistency when having to go down 4 gears. It's not as much of an issue at 3. These cars brake so late, you can't downshift fast enough. Mistakes will happen. I had a hell of time trying to consistently get down 4 gears into turn 5, braking as late as possible, and not upsetting the car or making a mistake and coming off in 3rd. I was driving a WF1 with the paddle shift system you mentioned. If you can go down 5 gears while threshold braking, without difficulty, then props to you.
By the way, when did you run a 48 at the Glen? The Glen is not a track that have to go down 4 gears, including at the busstop, you only need to go down 2 (6th to 4th). Road America is one of the few tracks that you have to go down 4, and I can't imagine where you would need to go down 5.
Jason
Coop, you lost "benchmark" status by getting rid of "pull and pray" shifter... and you got excellent brakes now but bodywork can't handle deceleration
hehe just kidding
you're the best
Hey Jason,
I qualified at a 48 before the engine oil filter o ring ripped expiring our engine at the national this past summer. Your right about the bus stop maybe I was thinking of the toe of the boot.I didn't say its a walk in the park dropping so many gears under threshold braking as you described in T5 at road america but wouldn't it have been sweet picking off Scully or Farrel down there cuz you could brake and downshift better than them?
BTW great drive through the field last week after the turn 1 bunch up. We were rooting for Garret or a Young racing car to win!
-Keegan
Don't most of the DSR cars have an "auto blipper" for the downshifts and SWOL?
Lawrence said that he noticed an issue with the SWOL before the race and disconnected it. My guess is that the autoblipper was still functional.
FB costs are still below those of FC Zetec, and by a bunch.
The drive train package for the FB -- engine, transmission, ECU, wiring harness, rear drive assembly including differential -- the equivalent of the engine, bell housing and transmission for FC cost way less for FB. Even if you add the cost of the Geartronics shift system you are still significantly less.
One fact of life is that the bike shift system was designed for foot shifting. I have not seen many people who have the strength in their arms that they have in their legs. This shifting problem that was address in the FB rules to allow assisted shifting systems. What the rules writers did not fully appreciate was the performance that you could get from a FC type car with 200 lbs less weight, 30 HP more and improved tire performance by allowing larger rims. Without a shifting system similar to the Geartronics, you are taxing any drivers' ability to execute basic operating functions of a race car.
I will bet that in a year or two, the Geartronics type systems will come down in price a bunch. Either Geartronics will offer a more economical system or someone else will take up the challenge.
As a group of FB supporters we should spend our time celebrating the first SCCA national championship for FB . Did anyone notice the numbers for FB in its first year vs. FE?
You don't need to go down more than 2 gears anywhere on that track. It's one of the reasons that I love it, it's very fast and flowing. The toe, I go down from 4th to 3rd.Hey Jason,
I qualified at a 48 before the engine oil filter o ring ripped expiring our engine at the national this past summer. Your right about the bus stop maybe I was thinking of the toe of the boot.
-Keegan
At the Runoffs, we had nothing but problems, qualifying and in the race. We never got one flyer in during qualifying as we had failures all 3 sessions. We lost our header during practice and lost our exhaust during the turn 1 incident. We were gapped too much, and the race was over just after it started. It wasn't the shifter that led to the 4th place finish.
Thanks. I was hoping Garrett would pull it off as well if we didn't.
Yeah, most do. They have been very unreliable though.
Jason
I must be missing something.
Let's assume the basic chassis and bodywork for FB and FC cars are the same including wings, diffuser, etc.
Then the difference really comes down to the drivetrain from motor to the output of the gearbox/differential. Here's what I'm hearing from FB competitors for costs:
Motor/clutch/gearbox $2k
Differential, chain drive, etc $1k (?)
Geartronics shifter $7k
Dry sump system $2k (?)
ECU (MoTeC M400) $4k
That's $16k without any sort of dyno development or tuning. To be competitive I'm assuming you'd have to spend significant time/money to get the most out of your engine.
An FC Zetec drivetrain (motor w/ ECU, intake system, gearbox) is $18k new and you can't do any development on it, so you're done. (Technically, I guess you could do development, but the gains are marginal and the engines are sealed in the pro series.)
From what I've seen, you still need structure to support the motor and differential, and it performs the same basic function as the bell housing in a FC, so there should be no difference in price assuming both are well designed.
The aero rules are much more open in FB than FC, so at some point being competitive is going to cost a lot more in FB.
Where am I off? (Honest question.)
Nathan
This is precisely why we changed from a shift lever/mechanical linkage to a solenoid actuator (Flatshifter). The mechanical system, involving three rods and six rod ends to transfer motion from the shift lever on the right side of the car to the shifter on the left side of the engine was a maintenance and reliability nightmare. Asking the centering spring at the gearbox end to move all that hardware back to the center position at the shift lever was just one of the problems. We limped home or dnf'd in three races last year directly because of problems with the mechanical linkage. Since we installed the solenoid actuator we have been completely trouble-free (in the shifting department, anyway!)
And yes, the paddle shifters were just too whizzy to resist once we decided to throw out the mechanical shift linkage.
While the Geartronics system sounds very cool, I see no performance advantage for the FB version over our much less expensive Flatshifter system, and over-revving on downshifts hasn't been a problem for us, even with a relatively inexperienced pilot. YMMV, of course.
cheers,
Stu
Stu Waterman
RMDIV
twitter.com/stuwaterman
Nathan, most Suzuki guys just use the stock ECU. Also, I won't speak for anyone else, but I did not pay $7k for the geartronics. And both Citations just have motors taken from bikes. Not even rebuilt.
Last edited by starkejt; 09.30.10 at 12:04 PM. Reason: too many "alsos"
Probably someone. We all have our own little cost : performance calculators. Mine is probably different than yours, different from Joe's.
To me it's all about how much am I off the pace. What is it going to take to get there? How long am I going to benefit from that cost?
If it was 20K instead of 2K but gained you 1 second a lap would you complain?
Last edited by Daryl DeArman; 09.30.10 at 12:13 PM.
If that isn't a red herring, I'll assume you don't ride or haven't ridden in a long time. Foot shifting a motorcycle doesn't use leg strength. Maybe ankle "strength" and very little of it at that.
As maybe it should be. The irony, IMO, is that without such systems the difference between the haves and have nots will be even larger.
My answers are in red below:
Thanks, Brandon, you answered my questions.
Some F2000CS competitors are running blueprinted gearboxes, but not necessarily the fastest guys (that's not to say it isn't an advantage).
Has anyone considered implementing a spec ECU? If the newer engines require a replacement ECU in any case (piggybacked, assuming that is legal), and people are worried about cost escalation, why not require something like a MoTeC M4, which you can buy for under $2k, or the Pectel equivalent? They have limited functionality, so you also prevent too much dyno development or implementation of traction control, etc.
Still lets those who are so inclined to tinker with their engines, but prevents too big a gap between the haves and have nots.
I'll shut up now and defer to those actually involved in the class.
Nathan
Can a Motec M4 handle 8 injectors and a set of electronic secondary butterflies?
Daryl;
I think that we should stick with exchanging facts and opinions. Insults are not productive.
True, it has been a long time since I have been on a bike or driven a race car.
My first experience with shifting a bike engine in a car came with Jay Lovett and his Stohr DSR. I worked all year to get a system that worked to Jay's satisfaction without success. When we started on the FB, the shifting was never satisfactory until we installed the Geartronics.
Corner 5 at Elkhart is a corner where in very close racing among many cars, one missed shift can cause a serious situation for all the competitors involved. I think it is desirable to minimize that risk.
Help with Acronym
SWOL?
Thanks,
Lazy
I spent a couple of years hoofing around in a Stohr DSR which was equipped with a push-button pneumatic shift system. There was no SWOL or auto-blipping, just a pneumatic ram that indiscriminately tried to bash the gearbox into submission every time you pressed a button.
It gave me shifting fits for 2 or 3 sessions before I finally figured out that forcing the issue is what caused problems with downshifting. Thereafter, I left my downshifts to the last 1/3rd of the braking zone and was able to zip through the downshifts as fast as I could coordinate the button push / throttle tap (I left foot brake). If the dog faces were even slightly loaded, however, even the pneumatic ram wouldn't budge the shifter. Beyond the initial learning curve, I've never found any significant issues with shifting this type of car; I certainly never found it taxing to "execute basic operating functions"!
Cheers,
Rennie
Shift With Out Lift.
Cheers,
Rennie
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