Roll protection Homologation

[Roger Eade]

As we are going through this process here in New Zealand in our classic and Historic fields, I am wondering what approuch various ASN's have had to this, from about 1980 on it would appear not to be a problem, but before that date is? we are trying to get a common tread in this so we don't reinvent the wheel.
Roger

[Larry]

No one is ignoring you, Roger. We're just not sure what your question is. If you are asking about roll hoop construction, I can give you a little ancient history. Prior to 1969 the SCCA requirement in a formula car was for a "roll bar." Nothing more! No forward bracing. No aft bracking. No requirement that it extend above the driver's head. In 1969 they required that the roll bar have bracing (either forward or aft). The bracing could be removable. This lasted largely through the 70's, but I'm not certain when they required that the bar be above the driver's head.

I'm not sure when the real major standards were implemented. Nor do I know when it was required that hoops be constructed of DOM steel and not ERW, or when the wall sizes were specified.

Good luck!
Larry

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Roger Eade]

Yes that is sort of what I am after, the problem we had with MotorSport NZ, was that they read the roll bar homologation as of today, so this did not work for a lot of our single seaters and purpose built sports race cars, this turned into the said can of worms, and I along with others have been trying to come up with a workable set of regs, and the more I look at it, the more confused I am, tryin g to put a line in the sand when roll hoop homologation became a standard is one we are after, but as you have said its not quite clear cut, one of our proposals is that if its the same as others in that model/year, all we want is a drawing, photos and what its made from, (hard one, but no alloy) wall thickness, the problem is when does forward bracing come in etc, it would seem from about the mid 80's forward and rear bracing was a standard feature on most formula cars, we have cars from all over the world here that we have to make these regs fit, and I know what the current SCCA GCR says which is very good and fits our later cars, with conversion into metric's but the others? we are trying to get this done soon but its s trail and a half so I thought I would post here and see what comes up! thanks to all who can offer some insight.
Roger

[Larry]

BTW, Roger, congratulations to the Kiwis for being in the Heritage Foundation Top 10 For Economic Freedom!

http://www.heritage.org/index/

Per Heritage, this is an indicator of prosperity as well as freedom, and shows a link between them.

Larry


RankCountryOverallChange
1Hong Kong89.7-0.3
2Singapore86.1-1.0
3Australia82.60.0
4New Zealand82.10.1
5Ireland81.3-0.9
6Switzerland81.11.7
7Canada80.4-0.1
8United States78.0-2.7
9Denmark77.9-1.7
10Chile77.2-1.1

[Charles Warner]

Roger,

IIRC the requirement (SCCA) for forward bracing was a direct result of Scott Liebler's fatal accident at Road Atlanta (RunOffs) in the mid to late 80's. Not sure of the yewar. His Martini had the standard European small tubing with minimal rearward bracing and it collapsed on impact. After that some sort of forward bracing was required. A google search might reveal more.

Cheers,

[Steve Demeter]

It was at the 1989 runoffs and he was 30 feet in the air, according to people who witnessed it.

There is still the "ceertified by a Registered Professional Engineer to meet the following ctriteria... loophole that can make it possible to circumvent the specifications.

Roger , If you are setting up specifications, allow no exceptions as this will make the can or worms that much larger.

[marty7]

Hi Roger, the roll over homologation is a real can of worms. IMHO MSNZ have failed to consider the full implications of demanding that all competitors re-homologate the roll over protection on all race cars. The big issue as I see it for historic (vintage) single seaters is the year 1978. This is the cut off from schedule AA to Schedule A. All cars built Prior to 1978 are Schedule AA and effectively treated as a rubber stamping as okay to race. It is a case of if it visually looks okay, gets signed off by an approved inspector, pay the money, then approval is granted. Tell me it's not about MSNZ getting yet more money from us.

Cars post 1978 are Schedule A under MSNZ rules. Shedule A paperwork is a joke. It is aimed at tin top cars with full internal roll cages complete wth supporting data from the original manufaturer. The big problem is a lot of single seater manufactureres no onger exist. The info no longer exists. At worst case we will have to replicate all our roll over bars. Then the manufacturer of the reproduced roll over bar can then fill out the schedule A paperwork. Absolute bloody madness. The cars have raced for years and all of a sudden some idiot in Wellington decides that they must be unsafe unless proved otherwise. I say this as I am directly affected by the rule. My 1984 Ralt rt4 is going to be hard to homologate as is my 1980 VDRF80c. The only car that will be straight forward is the 1972 Lotus 69. Guess which car has the most robust looking roll over protection.

As owners of historic single seaters we must stick together and hound MSNZ untill a viable solution is offered. I am aware of a number of historic racers with post 1978 single seaters that have been declined homologation - yes I am one. At this point in time we could see all post 1978 single seaters banned from competing . This will remove half the FF grid, and pretty much all of the superhistoric wings and slicks cars. Not a good look for the comming 40th FF aniversary or the Chris Amon festival.

What do we do? Talk to Julian Leach at MSNZ. The more of us that ring the bigger the issue. Initially they thought it was only a couple of cars, not what I expect to be in the region of 50+ cars. Also talk to Crunch Bennett. He is trying to get an ammendment passed that will make it easier to homologate our cars. If his amendment is passed then effectively our single seaters will be treated like Schedule AA cars. Also talk to Grant Martin of Auckland. He has a Swift DB4. He is a good voice as he has been trying to homolgate his swift over the past year with no luck. One would have to question the logic of the MSNZ technical department with this crazy situation.

Sadly no one out side NZ can help. Even if you have all the data, drawings and material specification MSNZ then ask if you can prove that the existing roll over protection is original and has not been replaced or modified. If you can not prove this then they will decline it. Go figure.

Martin

[Roger Eade]

Hi Martin

Agree with you 100%, I have been talking with Crunch Bennett long and hard, there is a commission meeting this coming weekend, and I have put forward some suggestions to this, I'm afraid talking to our Tech office has been a total waste of time, as they don't understand just what they are doing on this subject, and when offered prove of homologation from the MSA, of SCCA call you a liar, I'm not very happy with one person there, and think that he should be sacked, Julian has sort of let the ball drop I think, because I have spent a lot of time on this and have found out all sorts of information, and this is what they get paid to do, and its not a good look when the Historic Commission, ( along with many others) has to spend time to try and sort it out, feel free to contact me, over this, I will be talking to Crunch today, but need more info etc on just what our Tech Dept has been up to, as even Brian Budd is unsure, and needs to know, so that MORE action can be taken!

Roger

[marty7]

Hi Roger,

I'm currently doing a robot install in the USA so contact is a bit hard, if you email a phone number I can ring you. People that I know have issues are:

me - Martin Lucas, VDRF80c declined,
David Singleton, PRS FF declined,
Grant Martin, Swift DB4 declined,
Barry Leitch, FF and Ralt RT4 will be an issue.
Graeme Main - 1979 keran ff

People who don't know it yet but about to find out,

Grant Campbell, 1985 Swift FF
Roger Dowe 1985 Swift FF
Phil Foukes two 1985 VD ff
David Singleton 1985 VDFF
Tony Graeme 1984 Reynard FF
Geoff Harriman F3000 Reynard,
Will Oxley, F3000 Ralt RT21
Dome F3000, can't think of owner,
Swindleburn - Swift DB4
kenny Smith/Andy Higgans Swift DB4
Lyall Zohs Swift DB4
Neil Fraser - late model single seater.
Richard Cullen - 1979 VDRF70
Andrew Hollywood - 1984 VD

There are plenty more. I am only listing the north island guys I compete with exluding Barry Leitch. There will be lots I've missed not to mention the South Island competitors. Talk to Andy Culpin at Race FX for another angle on it. He is trying to make sense of it as a roll over approval signee.

Martin

[Roger Eade]

Thanks Martin, I have spoken with Andy at length about this and we are in agreement, but the problem is get it to a head, I am told that a lot of guys will just put their cars away, or sell them overseas if this issue does not get resolved, its not rocket science and we just need some sense put back into it, so that we all can get back to racing the damm things, my suggestion is this,
"as it was, so it shall be", we can't bring these cars up to 2010 standards, or whatever Kevin decides is the standard? and I believe he should be looking for a future else where!
Roger

[marty7]

It certainly needs to be resolved. Take the Chris Amon festival. if I can't get homologation for the Ralt then MSNZ won't let it race. An overseas driver can ship an identical car here for the festival and compete because their sanctioning body has different rules and it competes under that. I think the person you are refering to in Wellington is one I would like to see have less power or not be able to make and inforce these decissions. The guy I'm thinking of is not native to NZ.

I have heard the same reaction, sell the car or put it in storage. I think MSNZ will not let this happen. Teir one racing in NZ is declining. Hell they can't even get ten FF cars on the grid at a national level event. We had 38 historic FF's at the mcLaren festival. The largest form of motorsport in NZ is not V8 taxis, it isn't rallying, it is historics. Their revenue stream will shrink. Historics is growing. They will unfortunatley soon look at us as a easy target to get money from. Leavies to clubs are on the increase. How can they afford the trips to Paris and rally commisions if they kill of historics? Maybe someone should align themselves with the US motorracing organising body. Then we can tell MSNZ and the FIA to go stuff themselves. We will race historics under the US rules, insurance etc. Pay levies to them and shut MSNZ right out. Now there's a radical idea. Maybe we can convice Tony Roberts and Chris Watson to race under the umbrella of Cams or SCCA when they have events at Hampton Downs.

Martin

[Roger Eade]

Its thoughts like that that will get you shot (LOL) but you are right, in speaking with Andy Gilpin, he was saying that there is a body of guys who are willing to break away from MotorSport NZ, Its not something I would like to see happen, but you are right we are the fastest growing section of the sport here, and I think we are starting to get onto the same level of thought, at least that was the message that was put from the floor at the AGCM Historic Commission meeting, our problem is at the office and that person should be reminded just who is paying the bills.

Roger

[Scott B]

While not from NZ...although have visited, and very much enjoyed my time there...I did recently go through a roll over homologation with SCCA here in the states.

I have a March 86A Indy lites car(in Europe same tub as F2 cars). The car has been certified to run with the Indy Car crowwd, however it was not legal for SCCA. I contacted the guys at SCCA Technical, and they told me what changes would need to be made, and which standards in the current General Competition Rules would apply.

As for rocket science, I have a friend who is a Professional Engineer who does consulting and design work for NASA (the moon landing guys) and for the European Space Agency who was willing to put the roll over bar through the paces on his computer. However, I ran into a problem because the main roll over hoop was too small to meet SCCA minumum standards.

So....back to the drawing board...so to speak.

I ordered the correct DOM seamless materials, had a local guy who makes roll over cages for 4 wheel off road racers bend the tubing, I welded it all together and bolted it into the tub, took the photos and sent the packet to SCCA. A couple of phone calls and emails to clarify things, and two weeks later I have a Homologation Certificate. Total time to include making mounting plates, welding and fitting about 16 hours. Another 4 hours to put the packet together. Cost...about 100 USD for the supplies, another 100 USD for the bends to be done, and 75 USD for the Homolgation certification by SCCA.

So it can be done, and it was not as difficult as I expected. I just had to put behind me my personal bias, stop fussing, and just work with the rules of the organization. It was either that or I would have an interesting coffee table.

I hope it all goes well, NZ and Australia certainly have a great group of racers...and it would be a shame to see all those cars and drivers just collecting dust.

Regards,
Scott B

March 86A
Zink C4 FV

[marty7]

Hi Scott,

In your case replacement not so bad. The VDRF80c has an integral roll over bar. I don't want to cut off the original, refabricate a new one, weld it back on. The chassis is powerd coated so it will look awfull given the car is so original .The Ralt hoop is semi easy to replicate. but it is held to the tub by a lot of small fastners. to get to them I need to access the heads inside the bag tank area. That means remove engine and trans to pull out the bag and get up into the tank area - strip car.

The big thing is we race in historics, these cars were built to a set of rules. The irony of our situation is that a modern FF car competes at national teir 1 level races under schedule F (Formula Ford). If that car competes in at a lower grade race such as historics it then becomes schedule A. The modern cars roll over becomes invalid as it isn't schedule A so can't compete. Do you see the lunacy ?

We are hoping that the various powers that be see sense and pass a sensible ruling.

Now Scott, you have a 86 March, have you considered bringing it to NZ for our festival next year? There are a few ex march employees in NZ so you could meet some interesting guys. Bill Stone will be there (March's first employee). How about it?

Martin

[Roger Eade]

Hi Martin and others from NZ that have e-mailed me, we may have it nailed Brian budd and Crunch have come up with some ideas that with the input from others in the loop, its a sensible one and they will be meeting this weekend to tie it all together, I have seen some of it and while some may not think its perfect ( there will always be some!) I think its a way out of this, and I know CAMS are interested in this as well, I will post it here when its drafted up, for others that maybe interested.

A interesting highlite of this thread is that I did not know just how many kiwis read the postings here, a pat on the back for ApexSpeed
Roger

[marty7]

Hi Roger, I will keep my fingers crossed that a sensible solution is at hand. For me it is just frustrating that it has been made so difficult despite what MSNZ say on their electronic updates. My own thoughts are if it ain't broke, don't fix it. How many drivers in historics have been injured due to roll over protection failure?

When i get back home late next week I will try and resolve homologating my cars.

I live inAuckland. Attend most historic races. Where are you based?

Martin

[Roger Eade]

Hi Martin
I am in Christchurch, and you are able to contact me there, don't do anything just yet, as I think we only a week or so away from getting this done, Brian Budd and Crunch Bennett have been very good at getting this together, and I know they are aware of just how much this has pissed people off, and they have had a lot amount of good advice from various people on this issue now, it may not be perfect, but its a sensible solution IMHO, you can contact me by phone when you get back, my home phone is in the MotorSport handbook under CoC's and COD Auditors, and business is 0272781815 and Crunch has just brought a RT1 out of Europe, so he has come on board in the roll hoop debate at a personal level as well!

Roger

[marty7]

Hi Roger,

Crunch may not be in the same situation. RT1's were built from 1975 to 1978. Unless he has bought a 1978 model his car is schedule AA and effectively a rubber stamping. And lets be honest I doubt he will have approval isssues compared to an unknown like me. If his car is 1978 then he is the sameboat as the rest of us. So I hope he has a late model RT1 as that will be to our advantage.

I hope Crunch realises that we are gentlemen racers, we pose at speed so to say ;-) We all want to put our cars back in the trailer at the end of the day. I can't afford to doa retub . Grant Martin has a RT1 for sale. It's a shame Crunch didn't buy that one. But then again his RT1 is one more car to make up the grid. It helps to grow the F2/Fa classwhich is the ultimate aim for the super historis group. I hope he doesn't have the same experience as I. The RT4 was imported from Florida. Chassis runnging gear good. Trans CWP stuffed, dog rings stuffed, engine assembled from absolute junk. Soft crank, stuffed rods, clutch etc. I have decided to do it properly. New head, crank, rods, etc. New CWP. I am unsure if it will be ready for the Chris Amon Festival. It died at the Bruce McLaren festival.

Will ring you when I get back. Another week to go.

Martin

[Roger Eade]

The new regs have been posted on the MotorSport NZ web site (nice one Eric) and all single seater race cars and purpose built race cars that have a MotorSport NZ log book issued before the 1st September 2010 will have automatic Homologation of their roll protection, after that date a simple form must be filled out, so if the vehicle is made by a known manufactorer of race cars eg Ralt, Swift, etc, the process is very simple, just need the forms filled out and a inspection by a approved person, job done.
Roger

[marty7]

Hi Roger,

Long time no hear. I am glad I have managed to sort out two of my cars to date. Van Dieman no problem as it had a current log book. Lotus 69 took a few emails, phone calls and verification. Original log book lost. Car has been in NZ for over ten years. Nigel Russel confirmed it's history. HRC provided a log book number - it was that old it pre-dated MSNZ system !!

I am hopefully in the process of getting a MSNZ log book for the Ralt. I had a HRSCC log book . MSNZ have agreed to exchange them as a continuous log book. I had a HRSCC log book raised for the Ralt at the McLaren festival.

Letws hope the roll over homologation is done and dusted. The true test will be for new cars coming into the country.

Martin

[Roger Eade]

I think that as long as the roll hoops have not been changed from the orignal design, there should not be a problem, or if they have been Homlogated by another ASN, then that will be acknowledged by MotorSport NZ, I think it all was a storm in a tea cup, and some people were not listening, but are all talking now!
Roger

[Roger Eade]

I think that as long as the roll hoops have not been changed from the orignal design, there should not be a problem, or if they have been Homlogated by another ASN, then that will be acknowledged by MotorSport NZ, I think it all was a storm in a tea cup, and some people were not listening, but are all talking now!
Roger