HANS Device

[Mike Devins]

This being a class of younger drivers and newer faster cars so I am assuming that all of us are wearing a HANS device when we are on the track.

If you are not please do some investigation and find a way to make it fit and be comfortable. If you can not get it comfortable wear one anyway. How much discomfort would you withstand to watch your children and and grandchildren grow up.

You are no doubt asking why I am on this soap box - my friend John Metzger died as a result of a neck injury that was sustained at Nelson Ledges last weekend. There is no guarantee that the HAS would have saved his live but I do know that it would have improved his chances!

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Mike.

Friendly reminder: We should use the generic term HNR rather than the brand name HANS.

[Mike Devins]

This would be as good a time as any to open a discussion on the alternatives to the HANS.

[RussMcB]

I think John's passing has caused a lot of sadness, even in just the formula/sports car racing community. I'm sure it has a lot of people thinking about HNR more.

I got a call from Glenn Cooper yesterday. He's heading to the Glen for a race, but when he gets the chance, hopes to jumpstart an idea he's had about sharing HNR devices. For instance, he offered to let me use his HANS for free whenever he didn't need it. All I needed to do was install helmet anchors. Good for him. It's a noble gesture.

Joe Cooley's recent post here makes me a little more interested in trying out the Hybrid Pro: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...7&postcount=20

[Mike Devins]

From WIKI: From 2001 until 2005 NASCAR mandated that drivers use either the Hutchens device or the HANS device. Beginning in 2005 the Hutchens device was no longer sanctioned as an acceptable restraint device as it failed to live up to its former performance claims when tested to the independent SFI 38.1 standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HARW_XeNE

additionally the DefNder looks to be a Hans knockoff. I will send my money to the ones that did the R&D and helped us get to this point in the first place.

[Daryl DeArman]

Mike,

Sorry to learn of the the loss of your friend John Metzger. May your memories be your comfort.

[cooleyjb]

Thanks Russ.

As I've said to others I'm more than happy to talk to people on the phone to answer any questions people have and discuss what I see as the pluses and minuses of the devices on the market. I'm also happy to bring devices out to events for people to test fit, see and ask questions about. My goal is for someone to make a very informed decision about the purchase of a head restraint. I don't like people making decisions because they saw F1, NASCAR, or their buddy using it. Not everyone has the same car/setup/body/etc. If someone end up deciding on a device that's not one that I carry, that is fine by me as long as they are making a good informed decision and use it correctly.

The upcoming rule for SCCA is that the device needs to be SFI 38.1. As it stands only one device is FIA compliant but the Safety Solutions Hybrid is in the final stages of the requirements set by the FIA and FIA institute and it will likely be an FIA device in the near future.

The head restraints that meet this standard

Safety Solutions Hybrid Pro
Safety Solutions R3
Safety Solutions Hybrid
HANS
DefNder
Leatt Moto/R


I've had all of these on me at some point with the exception of the Leatt.

A consolidation of the test numbers of the various devices on the market. It includes some devices that are not SFI 38.1 compliant as well.

http://www.racesafetydata.info/HNR.html

[cooleyjb]

From WIKI: From 2001 until 2005 NASCAR mandated that drivers use either the Hutchens device or the HANS device. Beginning in 2005 the Hutchens device was no longer sanctioned as an acceptable restraint device as it failed to live up to its former performance claims when tested to the independent SFI 38.1 standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HARW_XeNE

additionally the DefNder looks to be a Hans knockoff. I will send my money to the ones that did the R&D and helped us get to this point in the first place.

The Hutchens that is mentioned in that Wiki was the Hutchens D-Cel which looked like a climbing seat/chest harness. It is not the Hybrid series which is currently used by a number of NASCAR drivers.

[Wren]

I think John's passing has caused a lot of sadness, even in just the formula/sports car racing community. I'm sure it has a lot of people thinking about HNR more.

I got a call from Glenn Cooper yesterday. He's heading to the Glen for a race, but when he gets the chance, hopes to jumpstart an idea he's had about sharing HNR devices. For instance, he offered to let me use his HANS for free whenever he didn't need it. All I needed to do was install helmet anchors. Good for him. It's a noble gesture.

Joe Cooley's recent post here makes me a little more interested in trying out the Hybrid Pro: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...7&postcount=20

Are you running the Road Atlanta regional? Can you get a HANS device on in your car?

[RussMcB]

Are you running the Road Atlanta regional? Can you get a HANS device on in your car?

Nope, and don't know. My car is in 3 substantial pieces right now. I've only sat in it maybe 3 times, and just on the bare aluminum. It needs a seat (and a lot more). My HNR decision will come after a few months of spending money and time on putting the car together.

Sorry for the side-jack, Mike.

Kudos to vendors who bring their HNRs to the track for trial fits. That's a big help.

[Tiago Santos]

It troubled me to hear about this incident yesterday.. I'm still new enough to club racing that I think of it as a relatively safe sport. Fortunately, as far as I know, fatalities are very rare, but this is a horrible reminder that the worst possible scenario can happen.

I (probably foolishly) still feel safe in the slowness of my Vee, but a HNR is on the shopping list for next season. I am still curious about the Defnder, not just for the slightly cheaper price, but because I'm under the idea that it would do a better job on a side impact than the Hans. Any thoughts on that?

[lancer360]

My F600 is an extreme lay down position and I use both a bead seat and a R3 HNR. If you have trouble with the HANS or Defender due to a low angle seat and interference with your helmet, consider the R3. The R3 fits only on your back with a chest strap so it won't cause interference with your helmet. I had my bead seat made when I was wearing it so I don't even know I am wearing it once I get belted into the car. I don't have any ties to Safety Solutions other than being a happy customer.

One additional benefit to the R3 is it works independently from your harness, so if you by chance participate in track days and jump in someones car as a passenger/instructor and they only have stock seat belts you still have HNR protection.

[Mike B]

The R3 fits only on your back with a chest strap so it won't cause interference with your helmet.

Here's something I've been wondering about the R3: What happens to your back in a rear-end collision such as backing into a wall? If the bead seat and/or u-shaped seat pad deforms like they're designed to, but the carbon fiber HNR (placed strategically over your spine) does not, what happens to your spine?

[Daryl DeArman]

Here's something I've been wondering about the R3: What happens to your back in a rear-end collision such as backing into a wall? If the bead seat and/or u-shaped seat pad deforms like they're designed to, but the carbon fiber HNR (placed strategically over your spine) does not, what happens to your spine?

Since the SFI spec and the FIA specs do not require any testing in this direction anybody's guess would be just that; a guess.

More importantly, every device out there has its' pros and cons. You need to decide which ones you are willing to deal with and which ones you aren't. There isn't a single device that performs best in every imaginable circumstance.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm more than happy to talk to people on the phone to answer any questions people have and discuss what I see as the pluses and minuses of the devices on the market. I'm also happy to bring devices out to events for people to test fit, see and ask questions about. My goal is for someone to make a very informed decision about the purchase of a head restraint. I don't like people making decisions because they saw F1, NASCAR, or their buddy using it. Not everyone has the same car/setup/body/etc. If someone end up deciding on a device that's not one that I carry, that is fine by me as long as they are making a good informed decision and use it correctly.

For all those reasons above I will be a future customer.

Before I get a lecture about buying it now and not putting it off...I sold my last Formula car and my HNR a couple of seasons ago. I have 4 more years before my youngest is in college. I will be back racing something at that point (or sooner). Depending what is on the market at that time and what type of racing I am doing will determine which device I buy. Hopefully we will have plenty of good choices and some devices will continue to improve due to competition.

[iamuwere]

I (probably foolishly) still feel safe in the slowness of my Vee

I would not let that "slowness" sway your opinion. This occured around the slowest corner on the track. It is only a 60-70mph corner and there are corners over 120 out there. This occured despite a decent number of tires against that piece of armco. A vee may be slower than a DSR/CSR/FA/FB/etc, but 60mph is not that hard to get up to and there are plenty of stretches of unprotected armco at other tracks (ahem, Watkins).

HNR is key. Can it protect everyone everytime? No, but a bit of protection is better than none.

Jim

[lancer360]

Here's something I've been wondering about the R3: What happens to your back in a rear-end collision such as backing into a wall? If the bead seat and/or u-shaped seat pad deforms like they're designed to, but the carbon fiber HNR (placed strategically over your spine) does not, what happens to your spine?

Good question. I do have a bead seat behind me and the R3, but it isn't as thick as I would truely like. The chassis I have doesn't have the biggest cockpit and I am on the upper end of who would fit in it. Maybe in a few years I can afford to upgrade to one of the newer chassis that have more room therefore more room for a thicker bead seat.

[Ananth K]

This would be as good a time as any to open a discussion on the alternatives to the HANS.

I had the exact same question and I found this:


http://www.924board.org/v...04b3bb389c5b995bc5c17bc9

[Daryl DeArman]

Ananth,

That thread is about 8 years old. More has been learned. Devices, including the HANS, have made improvements over that time. Other devices have been brought to market.

If you are going to research alternatives look for more recent data.

There are a couple of good alternatives. The Hybrid Pro might be one alternative worth considering.

http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com...ybrid-pro.html

[mousecatcher]

I am still curious about the Defnder, not just for the slightly cheaper price, but because I'm under the idea that it would do a better job on a side impact than the Hans. Any thoughts on that?

Don't know about the Defnder, but the HANS doesn't do a thing for side impacts. However, you should be able to add side bolsters to your cockpit if your chassis doesn't already have them.

[mousecatcher]

From WIKI: From 2001 until 2005 NASCAR mandated that drivers use either the Hutchens device or the HANS device. Beginning in 2005 the Hutchens device was no longer sanctioned as an acceptable restraint device as it failed to live up to its former performance claims when tested to the independent SFI 38.1 standard.

You forgot to use finger quotes around "independent".

[RussMcB]

<snip> However, you should be able to add side bolsters to your cockpit if your chassis doesn't already have them.

Maybe we can start a thread some day about how to make side bolsters for different (older) chassis.

[Ananth K]

Ananth,

That thread is about 8 years old. More has been learned. Devices, including the HANS, have made improvements over that time. Other devices have been brought to market.

If you are going to research alternatives look for more recent data.

There are a couple of good alternatives. The Hybrid Pro might be one alternative worth considering.

http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com...ybrid-pro.html

Daryl,

Point duly noted. While it is true that the thread is 8 years old, it is also true that there is no other device available which has FIA approval. I'm not saying this should be the only criteria for selecting one over the other, but it is something to keep in mind. The numbers from the spreadsheet posted earlier are incomplete and it is also unclear who did the testing.

[cooleyjb]

Don't know about the Defnder, but the HANS doesn't do a thing for side impacts. However, you should be able to add side bolsters to your cockpit if your chassis doesn't already have them.

I don't think anyone knows exactly what the numbers are for a side impact (90 degree). I've never seen any test numbers for any device for anything more than the required offset impacts.

Maybe we can start a thread some day about how to make side bolsters for different (older) chassis.

Something I've thought a lot about. As I said in the 'kink' thread, most of the club cars are in a tough situation where the drivers head is above the top of the cockpit. The same material used for bead seats can be used for making a custom side bolster or making a true impact one. Many that i've seen are just fiberglass shells that may or may not be of any use in a true impact.

Daryl,

Point duly noted. While it is true that the thread is 8 years old, it is also true that there is no other device available which has FIA approval. I'm not saying this should be the only criteria for selecting one over the other, but it is something to keep in mind. The numbers from the spreadsheet posted earlier are incomplete and it is also unclear who did the testing.

Actually there is a new FIA standard out that is not just the design specifications for a HANS. The Safety Solutions Hybrid meets the new standard and units will be available in the next few months.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/0...m_medium=email

[Daryl DeArman]

...it is also true that there is no other device available which has FIA approval. I'm not saying this should be the only criteria for selecting one over the other, but it is something to keep in mind. The numbers from the spreadsheet posted earlier are incomplete and it is also unclear who did the testing.

Both valid observations: The FIA spec you are referring to contains design clauses. Those specific designs are patented by Hubbard-Downing. Nothing else can be constructed to meet that FIA spec due to the spec being specific to the HANS.

Who did the testing? BINGO. Dig into that one. You may be amazed at what you discover. Almost all the info out there is manufacturer supplied. Not many qualified "independent" observers.

Actually there is a new FIA standard out that is not just the design specifications for a HANS. The Safety Solutions Hybrid meets the new standard and units will be available in the next few months.http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/0...m_medium=email

That's great to hear!

[R. Pare]

I don't think anyone knows exactly what the numbers are for a side impact (90 degree). I've never seen any test numbers for any device for anything more than the required offset impacts.

While not a test of H&N devices, McLaren did a big study of side impacts probably 15 years ago (published in Race Car Engineering) that popped open a lot of eyes.

If I remember everything correctly, the impact was about 30mph laterally. In the first runs, the "standard" wide-open cockpit of the time with its 1' of padding was used - maybe 4-6 inches of clearance between the side of the helmet and the padding.

The decelleration g's to the"drivers" head were north of 160 for a fairly large percentage of a second - basicly what was considered to be instant death at that time.

The next tests were with the padding moved closer and closer to the helmet, and in each case the g loading decreased substantially, eventually getting it to just under 60 gs, which is eminently survivable.

From there they started looking at different types of padding. I don't remember all of the types they tried, but I do remember that styrofoam beads worked remarkably well for such a simple and inexpensive material.

The main thing they found was that the better foams did not cause any rebound of the drivers head, which is where the highest g spikes originate.

Basicly, what all this means is that in formula cars, the fact that a HANS may not have good lateral restraint capabilities, you can get all the protection you need if you design a proper head surround with the right materials and clearances.

[cooleyjb]

While not a test of H&N devices, McLaren did a big study of side impacts probably 15 years ago (published in Race Car Engineering) that popped open a lot of eyes.

If I remember everything correctly, the impact was about 30mph laterally. In the first runs, the "standard" wide-open cockpit of the time with its 1' of padding was used - maybe 4-6 inches of clearance between the side of the helmet and the padding.

The decelleration g's to the"drivers" head were north of 160 for a fairly large percentage of a second - basicly what was considered to be instant death at that time.

The next tests were with the padding moved closer and closer to the helmet, and in each case the g loading decreased substantially, eventually getting it to just under 60 gs, which is eminently survivable.

From there they started looking at different types of padding. I don't remember all of the types they tried, but I do remember that styrofoam beads worked remarkably well for such a simple and inexpensive material.

The main thing they found was that the better foams did not cause any rebound of the drivers head, which is where the highest g spikes originate.

Basicly, what all this means is that in formula cars, the fact that a HANS may not have good lateral restraint capabilities, you can get all the protection you need if you design a proper head surround with the right materials and clearances.

Will search that article out. If someone else happens to know it's exact issue I'd greatly appreciate it.

THANKS Richard

[R. Pare]

Mid 90's is the best I can remember. I'm pretty sure that it was RCE and not Autosport. You could probably do a search for it on their web site.

[Ken Lawrence]

!996 RCE Vol. 5 No 6 page 24-28 has an article on racing safety. Has info Richard noted.

[cooleyjb]

Thanks guys.

[924RACR]

A few points... as noted, the old FIA spec amounts to little more than a quality-control test for the HANS. Nice way to get some great marketing leverage behind your product.

The thread linked above, which was mine, was focused on closed-cockpit street car safety - not surprising, since it was on a 924 forum, not a formula-car forum. There it's more of an issue to be concerned with side impacts than straight-ahead stuff. No point going into my reasoning, since it most certainly does not apply to cars of interest to readers here.

With a formula car or sports racer, the straight-on impact becomes much more important, so the strengths of a HANS etc become more relevant. Side impact, OK, we don't forget that, but it's much easier to address than in a sports car, since there's lots of easy options for padding/restraint in that direction. A good bead seat, plus a nice cockpit surround, gets you there. If not, I'd really like to hear, since I'm working through my DSR build and do want to know if I'm missing anything!

Re: side impact testing. Consider the test sled for straight and oblique impact testing as used for 38.1 etc. It's basically a NASCAR cage with a seat, belts, dummy etc. I've been to Wayne State to observe the testing myself.

So, the issue is, with anything more than shallow oblique angles, the H+N device becomes less significant as far as the loading experienced by the driver, head, etc. More significant is the seat, net design, and other such safety structures.

As these have not been standardized - since they'll be different for every car - there is not currently any standard for side-impact testing. I'm not aware of any proposals for such, but I don't work in that field, so I wouldn't be either.

But there's no baseline, so there's no meaningful way to compare right now.

I could go on about side nets etc - note that I do have such in my IT car - but that's decidedly off-topic and not relevant for this forum.

Still comes back to a) get yourself a good H+N device (I have 2) and b) make sure you have decent side impact bolstering, particularly for the shoulders and head.

If there's good input on appropriate side bolstering, with pics, I'd be glad to hear it - but let's start a separate thread for that...

[mousecatcher]

I could go on about side nets etc - note that I do have such in my IT car - but that's decidedly off-topic and not relevant for this forum.

Side nets are not for head/neck injury prevention are they? AFAICT they are to catch errant missiles that might make their way into the cockpit. I can't see any way a side net can be an effective head/neck restraint.

The standard seems to be the head surround on the seat. I just saw the legends race and noticed that one of the little kid's seat even had the head surround braced against the roll cage. I didn't pay attention as to whether the seat offered any impact absorption but at least it wouldn't give way.

[cooleyjb]

Side nets are not for head/neck injury prevention are they? AFAICT they are to catch errant missiles that might make their way into the cockpit. I can't see any way a side net can be an effective head/neck restraint.

The standard seems to be the head surround on the seat. I just saw the legends race and noticed that one of the little kid's seat even had the head surround braced against the roll cage. I didn't pay attention as to whether the seat offered any impact absorption but at least it wouldn't give way.

I think what you are imagining are window nets. Side nets are the triangular ones you see in the cockpits of GrandAm cars while there is an in-car feed.

If correctly installed they can help. But they must be correctly installed. That includes wrapping around the side/back of the seat and being very tight. They do help contain head movement when they are installed correctly.

[mousecatcher]

I think what you are imagining are window nets. Side nets are the triangular ones you see in the cockpits of GrandAm cars while there is an in-car feed.

If correctly installed they can help. But they must be correctly installed. That includes wrapping around the side/back of the seat and being very tight. They do help contain head movement when they are installed correctly.

I was referring to both the window net and the triangular net that runs approx down the middle of the cockpit. I watched GA today and I don't see how the triangle net is effective. It's well outside of the driver's shoulder and its effectiveness seems to be made clear (?) by those drivers whose seats have the head surround. ie, the seat surround is adjacent to the drivers head while the net is "very" far away.

I just always assumed it was to catch any interior component that might come loose in an impact, or the unlikely case of something coming through the passenger window.

[cooleyjb]

I was referring to both the window net and the triangular net that runs approx down the middle of the cockpit. I watched GA today and I don't see how the triangle net is effective. It's well outside of the driver's shoulder and its effectiveness seems to be made clear (?) by those drivers whose seats have the head surround. ie, the seat surround is adjacent to the drivers head while the net is "very" far away.

I just always assumed it was to catch any interior component that might come loose in an impact, or the unlikely case of something coming through the passenger window.

Yeah, the problem is that many in GrandAm are there because it's a rule for the series and not because they want it effective. As I said it wraps around the back of the seat and then the forward mount should run ballpark just over the shifter. That setup will put it much closer to the driver and in the same area as a halo seat and on the cars with a halo seat it helps contain the upper body should it move outside of the side bolsters of the seat and funnel them back to the seat after a big impact.

[924RACR]

What Joe said - yes, they are in fact a key part of side-impact protection in door-slammers, and even more important it seems than some of the really fancy seats (not to mention way cheaper). Work great with fancy seats too, but far more versatile than the seats.

They basically fill in the grey area between where the HANS works, and where a full-containment seat works.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled single-seater action...

[dburkett]

I have had issues with dash and control visibility with every hans I have had until I removed the cushions. Amazing difference. My suit cushions my shoulders and I don't notice any discomfort. I can see my brake bias, my bar adjuster, and my entire dash.

David Burkett