Allow aluminum calipers in FF?

[Stan Clayton]

The CRB have recommended a rule change to allow aluminum calipers in FF from next year. Discuss and vote here, but most importantly...write the CRB!

PS - This poll records and displays who you are and how you vote, so please only vote if you are an actual or seriously prospective FF competitor.

[RobLav]

I'm all for it, especially if/when it comes time to convert my car to FIT. It'd be really nice to standardize allowance of all the components like this across FF, FC, and FB.

[-pru-]

Seems I was about 11 months too early with my first post:

2009 Aug FastTrack : FF Rule Change Proposals

[M.Sauce]

This really only helps the replacement costs and typically once you have a cast iron lightened caliper are you inclined to buy new ones every so often?I don't think so but there will be a very big advantage to having alloy instead of the heavy cast iron calipers.I know cast iron calipers are expensive but if this rule were to pass you would have to purchase 4 calipers and possibly spares.I say don't do anything to increase the costs of competing.

[S Lathrop]

It is probably time to give up and allow aluminum calipers in FF. Especially if FC adapts the same rule. I don't think that it is tenable for FF not to follow FC.

The cost argument does not hold water any longer. The Citation FB is designed with several caliper options. One of those is a Wilwood 4 piston radial mount caliper. You can have 2 of these calipers for the price of an AP LD20 or ICP LD20 caliper. You can get calipers that will work for even less than that. The Wilwood 4 piston caliper has a big pad so pad ware will be minimal further saving money.

As to a competitive advantage from aluminum calipers, that to is bogus. The latest version of the ICP LD20 caliper weighs in at less than some of the popular alloy calipers and is as strong or stronger. Cast iron is stronger than aluminum on a per pound basis. Thus if you design for strength and minimize the material used you will have a stronger product using cast iron. It takes more pounds of aluminum to do the same job that you can do with cast iron.

The pro FC cars have not made a stampede to alloy calipers even though they are allowed. Interesting.

What is really gripping some is that there are brake systems out there that will possibly give a slight competitive advantage over the cheep alternatives. At this level you are talking about a one time cost that is significant. You might see new upright designs to achieve the potential benefits these calipers can offer. But here we are discussing "what might be" and not proven fact. If this is the case then you are talking lots of money. But you have that same option with the rules as they are now.

I expect to see that light weight cast iron calipers will remain a good option to spending a lot of money on new trick stuff. The new rules will give a low cost alternative.

[nulrich]

We've gone over the data many times on our F2000 cars and tried a bunch of things in lap simulation. Steve is right, there is simply no significant advantage to even the most expensive braking system you can buy. This is even more true for FF, I imagine, where less time is spent under braking.

As a constructor, having the option of putting a modern brake caliper on our new cars is a huge benefit and translates to reduced cost for our customers. If you are happy with your existing cast iron calipers there is no reason you'll have to upgrade. But you will have less expensive alternatives if you do have to replace calipers.

Nathan

[mblanc]

I think the change in FC makes sense, to follow the pro series,


and FF would benefit from
1-keeping things the same
2-the excess FC used inventory that is about to become available at good used prices.
(a way to lower the cost of entry, even for a new car)

Trickle down can be a good thing,

[ric baribeault]

....and if there's a pro series in FF?

[RobLav]

....and if there's a pro series in FF?

There's already discussions going on here...

[Ananth K]

This has already been done in the Ontario FF challenge rules for some years now. Maybe someone from there can chime in regarding the advantage (or lack thereof) offered by aluminum calipers?

[M.Sauce]

Steve- You are assuming that most FF's have ICP calipers and the weight difference is not that much.If you have stock calipers like many (most),the weight savings is substanial.You got to compare apples to apples.Unsprung weight ,you have spent many hours designing uprights and calipers to save that weight ,for you to say the argument is bogus is very odd to me.

[S Lathrop]

Steve- You are assuming that most FF's have ICP calipers and the weight difference is not that much.If you have stock calipers like many (most),the weight savings is substanial.You got to compare apples to apples.Unsprung weight ,you have spent many hours designing uprights and calipers to save that weight ,for you to say the argument is bogus is very odd to me.

I not certain I understand what you are saying.

My point is that presently with ICP calipers you can match the weight of aluminum calipers. So what changes. If you allow aluminum calipers then there is a low cost alternative to the light weight iron calipers. Wilwood has calipers that cost less than $100 vs. cast iron AP LD20 for something like $250. We don't charge that much for ICP calipers.

The original intent of the rule was to make everybody use the cheep production calipers. When we were building Zink Z10s, I could buy new ATE calipers and pads for $60 a pair. Now racing parts are the cheepest thing that will work.

We hate to loose the cast iron caliper business. But we have been working on an alternative for some time.

I am not addressing the issue of high end brake systems that would now be eligable.

[Josh Pitt]

steve,
are there any plans to make ICP capliers for those of us with LD-19 calipers?

[R. Pare]

We will continue on with the cast iron caliper business, with some changes to the caliper - it is most likely that most regions will not allow alu calipers in Club Ford, so those guys will still need the alternatives.

I have no plans on do LD19s again - there just isn't enough of a market to justify the expense and effort. Besides, FF's are better of with LD20s anyway.

Our new alu 2-pot caliper is non-handed. The plans on the 4-pot (with a larger pad than the LD20) will also be non-handed, and will have a full selection of bore sizes, so it could have equal size pistons for the classes that require it, or differential bore for those were it will be allowed.

[nulrich]

The plans on the 4-pot (with a larger pad than the LD20) will also be non-handed, and will have a full selection of bore sizes, so it could have equal size pistons for the classes that require it, or differential bore for those were it will be allowed.

Which kind of begs the question: why make a rule that requires equal-sized pistons? It just makes our lives as manufacturers more difficult, proliferates the number of caliper configurations in any given paddock, and increases cost for everyone.

I admit I'm biased, though, since I would prefer to make one style of caliper rather than special ones for FB, club FF, club FC, and F2000 pro cars!

Nathan

[Jonathan Hirst]

From Ontario I can say that most of the newer cars with alloy calipers have them because they were delivered with them. Admittedly some have been upgraded but I believe that comes down to economics versus outright weight or performance gains.


There seems to be neither a measurable performance advantage nor is there a glut of cheap iron calipers on the market as a result of the ruling.

Jonathan

[ric baribeault]

Rob, i was being facetious. it's way beyond discussion. and nathan has an excellent idea...one size fits all. Now if we could only apply that to a tire. sorry for the hijack. we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[Swift17]

There was Formula Ford w/ a Kent Engine .....
(start up fields, multiple chassis ... production parts WOW) ..... then

Racing wheels, expensive slick tires, some "aggressive" bodywork (wink, wink, nod nod)
(-some competitors leave- huge fields, chassis mfgs' stable - cars built with some production parts -&-Kent)

[Note-clear ladder -- FF to FF2 then S/V followed by Atlantic and on to where your talent took you...]

Exceptional engineering, F1 style modules, very aero bodywork
(-some competitors leave- big fields, chassis mfgs'd down again, still with some production parts Kent [inc. DUMB crank busting flywheel]) expensive tires ... then

FFord --- one marque class (effectively) exceptional shock engineering
(-some competitors leave- smaller fields -- still with the expensive tires, all but a couple of mfgs' gone [re- engineering a "old" chassis] and still the Kent ......

Engine component changes - ally head, steel crank, forged pistions (lightened but still DUMB flywheel) effective custom ordered chassis only
(dwindling fields -- still with expensive tires Kent block and crank) ....

FFord and FFit = "FF" -- due to a claim of lack of blocks HPD/Honda arrives despite no clear evidence of the lack of blocks and ALL the ally blocks you could want (like the Honda's) available in GB. Ford says to produce ally blocks -- For sure long life for production engines and after "massaging" the restrictor and ECU -- HPD will be super conpetitiive --- Ford says it will produce lighter cast iron blocks

______?________ fields, still with EXPENSIVE tires (and DUMB flywheel -off the corner f.i. of Honda v Weber --well, we'll see !) And ... the whole "flap" about diffusers

Now ally brake calipers to be followed by ????

Almost ALL changes made for " .... reducing costs, supply requirements, etc" yet still the rules allow expensive tires and DUMB flywheels (how may pre steel crank engines were destroyed by those annuity flywheels (banging the crank of the road nothwithstanding)

This was intended to review what I have seen since folllowing FF from 1974 while in school and then racing FF (autoX '76 &' 77) rr since '78 [Lotus 61 -Royale RP-3a -Royale RP-16a - VD/RF-82 and DB-1] -- not to editorialize --

EXCEPT for the DUMB flywheel and expensive tires

BTW -- during my usual "sidetrack" into the m/c racing Ducati world I got to know a Pirelli engineer quite well and met again at GrandAM -- I asked him about FF and tires - he commented -- NO problem developing an FF tire in the exact same size as currently used and a compound that would last with a "flat" performance curve for 15/20 real heat cycles == " .... actually, then longer you design them to last for wear, the "flatter" the performance curve ...! The problem is how can Goodyear delelop such a tire with extended life and still send support trucks to the races ---

I apoligize in advance if this is deemed a HIJACK

[Swift17]

sorry error in edit

[Stan Clayton]

Now ally brake calipers to be followed by ????

Pod racers...