Thinking of getting a FF for Vintage...

[snettleship]

Hello, I currently have a 1970 Lotus 7 that I've taken from a road/track car over the past 6 years to a Vintage (SVRA, VDCA) race car. I'm thinking of switching over to the FF ranks. When anyone asked me about the Lotus 7, I pretty much told them it was a Front engine, 2 seater Formula Ford. In my case I have the Kent 711M engine (dual Weber 40's, 1mm over bore) so not a major leap in engine choice. I've always had my eye on the single seater cars though.

Now, the choice of car. I thought a FF car was a FF car. Never knew about Club Ford. I still want to race in the vintage groups since that's my group of choice. If I had my way, being a Lotus kinda guy I'd just take a Lotus 51 and be the epitomy of FF vintageness. But I don't know if I want to spend the $25K+ for that privilege.

I see some very nice looking CF cars around in the $10-15k range. To get the equivalent pre-73 FF car, it looks like you need to take on another $10k and be in the $20-25k range. I'm not restricting myself to Lotus but a nice Titan, Royale, Merlyn all seem to be in that range.

The vintage groups here (east coast) insist on the spec Dunlops so I don't see much of a performance advantage.

So, I'm trying to see what the down side to getting say a Lola T342 or other 73-79 car. I can't race Monoposto but other than that.....

Before you all sit down for Thanksgiving dinner (in the US), what do ya think?

Oh, in order to so this I'll need to sell my Lotus 7 so if anyone out there is interested in a Group 8 car which is is FF-like.....

Scott

[Roland V. Johnson]

On the West Coast, a Titan Mk-6 is the choice of most of the top Vintage Formula Ford drivers. A Lotus 51 is a neat car, but won't run with the Titans, (at least I have never been able to.) Out here the Club Ford choice is a Crossle 32 Series car. The Zink Z-10 is also a great car. I think they are running the Club Ford cars on Dunlops as FF 70's back there.

[mike g.]

Scott -

check here - http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/hf.htm

There are a few nice examples of pre-73 cars.

I have a 75, and thought about running with VSCDA (as they're a great group around here) but never got around to it with the Hawke... Monoposto rules are allowing CFF in the VFF group last year and 2010 to try the waters, last I checked... I think its been good so far - mostly good cause not many CFF guys went and ran vintage and pissed off all the old guys :-)

There is also a 70 or 71 Titan that rupturedduck racing is selling around Atlanta, I recall. That should be on the race-cars site. I think its under $20k.

Good luck -

Mike

[Josh Pitt]

On the West Coast, a Titan Mk-6 is the choice of most of the top Vintage Formula Ford drivers. A Lotus 51 is a neat car, but won't run with the Titans, (at least I have never been able to.) Out here the Club Ford choice is a Crossle 32 Series car. The Zink Z-10 is also a great car. I think they are running the Club Ford cars on Dunlops as FF 70's back there.

scott,
roland knows his stuff, and his post is spot on.
the car to have for vintage racing is the Titan, plan on spending $20K+ for a good one, and more if you buy a "bad one" and fix it up to be a good one.

club ford the crossle is the car to have, which coincidentally i just bought a very nice crossle 32F to run with HSR West (again). the price of nice crossles have gone up, and expect to pay ~$20K for a good one with a motor that has all the best internal parts in it.

[mdwracer]

I totally agree, in vintage the Titan Mk 6 seems car of choice on East and West coast. I drive a Merlyn Mk 11A because I wanted that classic look of the round nose and yet a strong chassis that is still competitive. Merlyns seem to be strong in England more than here. A Caldwell D9 is very good too. Dont forget to look at your size requirements if applicable, I have never sat in a Winkleman but I have heard they accomodate taller drivers ... I"ll take some input on this ,what is the largest vintage FF out there??

On Club FF, East coast takes 73 to 81 chassis, and I agree the Crossle is seen a lot. I have a 1981 Crossle 45F and it is a great car. The 81 Van Dieman is also a good chassis to consider but it is a little tighter fit. Most people will stay away from the flexible chassis style design cars, and a bunch have been "strengthened" and with re-engineering can do well.

Having said all that, I have seen East coast drivers who can make anything go fast and if you take them out of a so called chassis of choice and let them set up a not so desirable chassis with same motor HP, they could still make the top 5. Spending more $$ on initial investment of a chassis of choice will always be good at resale.

Mike Winebrenner

[Daryl DeArman]

So, I'm trying to see what the down side to getting say a Lola T342 or other 73-79 car. I can't race Monoposto but other than that...

Not that I've ever been fortunate enough to own a race car as an appreciating asset....

The vintage stuff may actually increase in value over time and you can race it anywhere. Which also means when you go to sell it you are selling to a larger market.

The Club stuff---not likely to lose much value---no real worries about something newer/better coming along and making your car grid fodder. You can race it almost anywhere.

A new FF---will depreciate quickly. If something newer/better comes along your car of choice could become grid fodder. Slightly less choices about where and with who you can race than the other two.

[Josh Pitt]

I"ll take some input on this ,what is the largest vintage FF out there??
Mike Winebrenner

mike, when i was looking for a vintage car the titan was not only the best chassis for speed, but also was the largest cockpit i found for a big driver. parts are alos attainable through andy antipas

the crossle i chose because the chassis can run up front, the cockpit is large, and parts are sitting on the shelf at neil porters.

Josh

[Brian]

Formula Ford is, in my experience, the cheapest way to go vintage racing, except for Formula Vee. Transmissions are relatively bulletproof, engine rebuilds cost less than a lot of other cars, parts (for the right car choice) are quite available, and tire and other running costs are low. You can run on pump gas, not 110 octane, and a set of tires a season is kind of nice. The cars hold their value well. For me, club ford cars can be cheaper, faster, more available, and safer than vintage FF cars.

One thing - it's costs just as much to restore a club ford as it does to restore any other ford. Which is roughly twice what it is worth. So buy a good car, have it chosen for you by an expert, do all of the basic maintenance as soon as you get it, and embark on a program of running improvement.

Brian

[Larry]

CF will be much less expensive than Vintage. There are many excellent CF cars available, and they are largely priced right. Vintage cars will cost roughly twice the cost of a CF. You've cited the obvious reason.

The good news is that either one is typically no more (and often times less expensive) to repair than a standard FF. A front upright for my Titan was about $150. The front upright for a Reynard will be $450. Most of these cars use wishbones and radius rods instead of far more expensive rockers.

The downside is availability of unique parts such as rear upright castings. If anyone has a rear upright for a Titan Mk 6, please let me know, as I'd like a spare!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products--purveyor of Reynard, Zink and Van Diemen parts
703-759-0567 most evenings until 9:00 PM eastern

[PaulT]

I sold my Lotus 51 to a guy who had a Lotus 7. He has loved every minute of the "new" car.

Go for it,

Paul

[snettleship]

So, when you say "go for it" are you saying the "it" is a FF car or the "it" is a Lotus 51? I see what looks like a nice Lotus 51 listed in Wisconsin but I doubt I can sell my "it' for what it cost to buy that "it".... Even though the 51 is rather iconic in vintage FF and "it" does have the "it" factor. Ok, I'll get come caffeine now...

Scott

[PaulT]

By "it" I mean a FF, any FF. I personally prefer the vintage cars as opposed to the Club Fords, but any FF is better than no FF. Here in the Midwest our vintage car counts in FF are pretty good, 8-12 car at each event this year. Approximately 20 at the two larger events at Road America. These are just vintage FF counts and don't include the Club Ford entries.

The Lotus 51 in WI is a great car. I've seen it first hand and competed against it for the past few years. It is well sorted and very competitive.

Paul

[Al Murray]

I agree with the rest of the guys that the Titan being the weapon of choice. I just happen to have a very nice SOVREN front runner for sale. You can see the listing here on Apex Speed.
We also have a couple of Lotus 61's that are for sale and race ready here in SOVREN. One used to be the fastest FF in SOVREN. Of coarse, that driver will be the fastest driver in anything he drives. SOVREN typically will run 20 plus FF's on a race weekend. If interested in the 61's I can pass you on to the party selling them. Both those drivers moved into Titans. However, they haven't yet really gone any faster yet.
This year we had several different makes leading the pack at differents times including a Lotus 51. Vintage FF is really about the driver and not the car. I was and will always a midpacker until I shed about 100 pounds. And there isn't much chance of that, 50 maybe. 30 would be good. This year I have been driving a Brabham FB car. At the end of the season I was just catching up to the front pack of FF's. It was fun running with them for a change, but not as fun if I were in a FF.
Buy the best car you can afford and like. No matter where you run in the pack you will usually come in after a race with a big smile on your face. And in today's world the smile is worth every penny you spend.

AL Murray
SOVREN
Former Elden and Macon FF driver.

[snettleship]

Al,

Thanks for the info. That brings up an interesting question. I must admit that since I live in North Carolina (where there are plenty of Stock cars) I have not been seriously considering anything west of the Mississippi. NC is reasonably central on the east coast and I'm within a day's drive of most places here. I have relatives in Madison Wi so even though that is further out it kinda qualifies. I have relatives in New Jersey I'll see over Christmas so that could be a side trip from there.

How many people have purchased cars "sight only seen on the internet"? I've have seen some shipping recommendations but part of me would want to go get it with my 20ft Haulmark trailer if I could.

Since I have been racing for 6 years I know enough (to be dangerous) to check out race organization results, mylaps.com, previous sales on race-cars.com and whatever other internet information I can find.

But, I can't see buying a car without kicking the tires first. I had a Lotus Elite shipped from Arizona. First though I found a friend of mine and saw his in person then took a side trip from a vacation in Texas to see that car before I wrote the check.

Is everyone's experience a good one. Of course, I would assume that from all the wonderful resources here on ApexSpeed. Still, there is always that caveat emptor I always here so much about.

Scott

[mike g.]

Flights are cheap when compared to not getting what you paid for!

Either have a known shop inspect the car, or fly out there and check it out yourself. You can head out and back on a Sat/Sun for under $200 if its near a major airport.

[Roland V. Johnson]

One of my customers bought a car from the East Coast that was reported to be in great shape by the professional shop that worked on it. $20,000 later, it was!

[TimW]

I went and saw mine before I bought it. Flight, cheap hotel & rental car + gas was less that $350 and seemed like cheap insurance on a $10k purchase. I felt it was worth it as the shop had 3 DB6s, one a runner, one a roller & one in a box. It was easy to confirm what was delivered was the one I agreed to buy; not that now that I know the seller that there was much risk of that but at the time I did not know him at all.

[Larry]

I've purchased a lot of cars where I couldn't travel to simply inspect it before making an offer. It goes like this:
1. Call the seller. Ask a LOT of questions. Make a lot of notes. Get as many pictures as possible.
2. Negotiate an acceptable price, but emphasize that it is an offer contingent upon your final inspection and verification of what you believe the car to be.
3. Inspect the car personally. If it's what you expected, pay the man.
4. If it's not what you expected, tell him so. State what areas the car doesn't live up to your expectation. Then you can either offer him a revised price or walk away from the deal.

When I was brokering business jets, this is how we handled the sale, except the contingency was the "pre-buy" inspection. The inspection was done at the buyers cost, and he had the right to go as far as he wished on the inspection. If he found defects, he could either walk, absorb them himself, or ask the seller to pay to correct them. This allowed the buyer to not have to spend days traveling around, looking at various aircraft and then deciding that the pricing was wrong. You could negotiate the deal before the inspection.

I have an "ethical" thing about buying and selling. If both parties agree without the contengency, there should be no further negotiations. It's a deal, period! With the contingency, the seller understands that it's not quite a deal yet, but that you are a serious buyer, and he should expect you to arrive with cash in hand. (Yes, CASH.)
I've purchased four cars this way. (I was able to inspect the other cars before making the offer.) Three times they were as expected and I paid without any further question. (One was a beautiful Lotus 51 roller.) The fourth car was pretty crude, and the owner agreed, so we ended up at $1,000 less.

Finally, used race cars are tough to evaluate. I've seen cars represented and sold as something they weren't. (82 Reynard sold as an 84 as an example.) Many of these cars do not have chassis plates, or the plates can be removed/reinstalled. None of these cars have titles. Logbooks represent ONLY what was told at the time of issue. If you have any doubt of the veracity of the seller or the car, get the hell away! Fast!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[snettleship]

Larry,

Thanks for all the advice. I did something similar when I bought my Lotus Elite from someone in Arizona. Thanks to all for your expertise. I'm sure I'll be back for more once I have cash on hand and ready to make a decision. I have a few candidates in mind but don't want to bother the owners until I'm ready. I'll bug some other folks and get a few test "seatings" in their cars to get a feel for the differences.

Scott