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  1. #681
    Member robin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff88ix View Post
    So the vote is/was today correct? when will we hear the results? somebody knows.......

    Jeff
    Most likely in the November Fastrack.

    robin

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    Contributing Member ric baribeault's Avatar
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    any one out there with some inside info on the decision? i have my eye on a DB4, and it's off to vintage, if it's not approved.

  3. #683
    Classifieds Super License stonebridge20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
    Late to the party, and with an argument that never fully gelled... Against my better judgement, I'd like to post the thoughts that I finally expressed to the CRB/BOD on the Honda Fit proposal. As wandering as it is, there's an element of this note that I still think is crucial to FF regardless of the BOD's decision... Feedback appreciated.


    Is it human nature that people want to jump to proposing "the solution" to a problem before they even know what the problem is? It's funny, I see it at work all the time – people want to "start making progress" and they sprint off to design a solution thinking, "I know what this program needs!" without really understanding what the core needs and critical requirements of the program are. But then we all suffer shortly thereafter, trying to first find, and then tie up, the loose ends.

    So, here we are talking about what we need to "fix" Formula Ford... "I know, throw a modern fuel injected engine in there! That'll fix it! While we're at it, let's make it an all carbon fiber chassis, with carbon/carbon brakes, and beryllium calipers, and a 7 speed sequential hyper-drive transmission! Yeah, that's the ticket! That'll add some sizzle!"

    Against what criteria can someone convince themselves that the above is viable for Formula Ford? I've been trying to think of how I will phrase my input to the CRB regarding the Honda Fit engine proposal (yes I know - am I too late yet?). On the surface of it, I'm inclined to say "shame on us - there's a golden opportunity being presented to Formula Ford, and we are not currently in the position to take advantage of it - reject the proposal and take some time to put our house in order. When (and only when) it is, pray that another golden opportunity appears shortly thereafter". To be honest, it makes me sick to think such a seemingly rare opportunity would be lost.

    For the record, I'm not passionately for or against the Honda proposal. There can be no denying
    the allure of a modern, low maintenance engine with increased longevity and decreased
    replacement cost. For me personally, I don't believe it would be any harder to convert my Tatuus from Kent to Fit power than it was to convert it from Pinto to Kent power. (That's not to say it was easy -- 2 years were lost in the first conversion. Another year minimum would likely be lost installing the Fit -- not exactly what I had in mind when I said I wanted to "go racing".)

    But my problem lies with the rationale by which people are saying that the Fit solution is crucial to the survival of FF. And how by throwing the nearest bright shiny object (e.g. carbon fibre, sequential transmissions) into the class, new FF racers will instantly appear.

    The path forward for Formula Ford, and for amateur racing in general for that matter, is a complex systems engineering problem if I ever saw one. This isn't a design problem - this isn't about designing a new widget to stuff into the place of the old one - this is about understanding the entirety of amateur open-wheeled racing and determining what Formula Ford racing needs to become to keep its spot in the lineup.

    What is Formula Ford? What are the fundamental objectives of the class? What are the
    critical requirements and constraints? Once the community locks down the answers to those questions, then you can measure a proposal against them and see whether it fits. In my opinion, until the community centers up on the key requirements, proposing "solutions" for the class will be nothing but disruptive blindfolded dart-throwing. And then we all suffer.

    So, rather than getting caught up in the minutia of 112 vs 114 hp, or .0011" clearances versus .0018" in production motor. I'd like to ask you all, what is Formula Ford meant to be? On ApexSpeed, on the arguments for and against the Honda, and especially in the spec tire discussion, you'll see a common thread peek through, and I think THAT's where we need to start...

    In my opinion...Formula Ford is...
    • A *drivers class* that emphasizes skill and/or hard work over technology and
    pocketbook (now, "skill" can be the result of exhaustive testing or novel
    interpretation of what I hope are tight rules, but I'd prefer that it's the best
    driver in the end who wins in this class)
    • A non-wing class that emphasizes mechanical grip and balance
    • A class with strict constraints on a robust race-worthy motor so that the
    emphasis is placed on driving and setup, not on frequent maintenance, or on a
    spending war to find additional power
    • A class that minimizes/disallows the use of blatant aerodynamic aids (yes Richard! Definition required, lol), but still encourages a clean aerodynamic design
    • A purpose-built racecar that allows freedom of chassis and suspension design,
    but is of a construction that can be built equally well in a home garage (albeit a
    well-equipped one) or in a race car factory
    • A class where the act of shifting (changeable) gears is required
    • A class to introduce a racer or a crew member/engineer to the basics of
    chassis set-up - wheel rates, corner weights, roll centers, spring rates, damping,
    rake, ride height, camber curves, bump steer, anti-roll bar changes, optimal gearing,
    etc, etc.
    • A class that is accessible to middle-class (say arbitrarily, a $50k household
    income) weekend racers with busy work weeks,
    • A class where close racing is as much of the experience as getting to the
    finish line first

    So, what's my point and how does this relate to the Honda proposal? Well, if you use my impression of the FF fundamental requirements (and I’d rather use the amalgamation of everyone’s instead of using just mine) above, one gets a sense of what's truly crucial, and what's nice to have.

    What *is* necessary to meet the goals? Well, a robust, cost effective race engine that is legitimately competitive for a price that meets the middle class racer constraint is one component. That it could be installed in the car and almost forgotten about for a full season would be a huge bonus, but is not strictly necessary.

    So, is the Honda Fit engine compatible with the philosophy of Formula Ford (ignoring of course the fact that it’s not a Ford…)? Yes, it would appear to be on the surface (and based on the assertions of Honda). People have raised legitimate concerns about the Honda proposal on the ApexSpeed forum however. The most critical of those concerns being the (fully understandable) desire of Honda to be perceived as the preferred FF engine solution for marketing and investment return reasons, and the accompanying threat of subtle engine changes in future production runs to make it happen. There can be no denying that Honda would have a greater incentive to differentiate its engine relative to the baseline Kent than would Ford who would be pleased with a “Ford” in the car either way. It is this simple fact that disqualifies the Honda as a legitimate FF replacement engine option since the process of jockeying between engine options to pick the hottest of the month conflicts with the spirit of the class.

    Qualifier… If by some miracle, absolute parity can be established between engine options AND the SCCA holds full control over the specification of each FF engine option (such as is the case with the Kent currently), the Honda option should be included. However, I do not believe that absolute parity can be achieved between options, nor do I believe the SCCA has the bandwidth to manage the parameters to ensure parity throughout the future of FF.

    A few additional thoughts:
    Please consider the inputs of Formula Ford participants current and future with more weight than outside observers. It appears, at least on the ApexSpeed forum, that there are several people with loud voices who do not race FF, have no intentions of running FF in the future, but still feel compelled to “fix” FF for the rest of us. I joined the SCCA to race Formula Fords and intend to do so through the foreseeable future. I am now a national license holder and have competed in an average of 4 races per season over the past 5 years. I am not “on the fence” for racing FF – your
    decision will impact me directly and immediately.

    The assertion that a competitive Kent costs $14000 as has been bandied about on the ApexSpeed forum is intentionally misleading... In 2003, a local engine builder fully rebuilt the engine in my first Club Ford for approximately $4500. It made regional-level power at best, but six years later it's still running in the car (now Mike Green's ), still with a stock crank and only a minor refresh as far as I know. (Which brings up another point – the Kent is a robust motor, not the hand grenade Honda proponents want to make it out to be. ) This past year, I had Jay Ivey massage an already solid Schulz shortblock with all of the upgraded parts. The result was what I believe to be a national-class engine for a price all-in for both engine builders of approximately $12k. This included twice the shipping costs and an additional break-down / rebuild cost that would not have occurred if I’d had the engine built by only one builder. Point being, a competitive motor can be built for much less than $14000 and the cost distributed over several seasons is not un-palatable.

    Additionally, the assertion that the Kent engine is the problem or obstacle in Formula Ford is flawed. I feel that the price I paid for the Ivey engine represents a good value, and I look forward to several additional seasons with only modest rebuild costs now that I’ve made an investment in the solid foundation. The engine is bolted in the back of the chassis, I start it, it runs, I race. I don't care that it's a Ford, or that it's carbureted vs. fuel injected. I only care that I know that my engine is competitive relative to the guy running next to me. By far, the seasonal expenditure on race tires is much more frustrating to me and a larger problem for the health of Formula Ford.

    In closing, I respectfully urge the Board of Directors and Competition Board to take a holistic approach in making a final decision on the Honda Fit engine proposal. While the proposal is attractive at first glance from a cost, longevity and present-day-technology standpoint, there are some significant pitfalls that must be avoided to ensure that the Honda solution is compatible with the spirit of Formula Ford. Make an compelling case for engine parity and I say allow the Honda solution. Otherwise, please allow Formula Ford to remain a “Ford Kent” class with the potential of more modern solutions from Ford in the future.

    Said another way, this decision isn't about which engine is chosen, it is about the process by which the chosen engine is made to work for Formula Ford.
    BRILLIANCE !
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  4. #684
    Classifieds Super License stonebridge20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ric baribeault View Post
    any one out there with some inside info on the decision? i have my eye on a DB4, and it's off to vintage, if it's not approved.
    And you think you spent too much money on a Kent engine?

    I told you to step back from the happy gas when your knocking those poor people out! Your standing too close again!
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  5. #685
    Member kevin keller's Avatar
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    Excellent post! Personally, I believe a huge part of the race is getting there. It’s where preparation meets opportunity. SCCA already has classes that you can turnkey and drive.
    I can offer a parity to this very same conversation playing out today in another series. That series has already taken the leap into the very thing is just being discussed right now with FF. All I will say is it is pure chaos and the car counts are dwindling more and more.
    Last edited by kevin keller; 10.18.09 at 7:42 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #686
    Contributing Member ric baribeault's Avatar
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    since we have known each other about 30 years you know, for me, it's not a question of money. i've thought it's time for a modern motor for the last 10 years. plus i've always been in favor of taking the motor out of the weekend equation as much as possible....ric

    but for engine issues, JT would have won every race for the last few years

  7. #687
    Senior Member VehDyn's Avatar
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    Default Fromm SCCA.com

    The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”

    The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.
    Ken

  8. #688
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  9. #689
    Senior Member PCalhoun's Avatar
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    Default SCCA Press Release

    For Immediate Release

    SCCA Board Approves Noteworthy Club Racing Changes

    TOPEKA, Kan. (Oct. 18, 2009) – The Sports Car Club of America Board of Directors made several noteworthy changes to the Club Racing program at its Oct. 16-18 meeting. In addition to its regular business conducted, changes were made regarding the Formula Ford class, minimum driver age, Showroom Stock vehicle age limits, Spec Miata tires and the classes eligible for the Runoffs.

    Formula Ford
    The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”

    The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.

    Minimum Driver Age
    The Board approved a proposal to lower the minimum age requirement for participation in Club Racing to 15 years old on a conditional basis. Drivers must have previous racing experience (ie. karts, midgets, etc.) and must be pre-approved by their Divisional Licensing Representative. These drivers will be under strict scrutiny of event officials. Full details are requirements will be available in the December Fastrack News.

    Showroom Stock Age Limits
    The Board approved to extend the sunset rule in Showroom Stock from 10 years to 12 years, giving all cars an additional two years of eligibility beyond their year of production.

    Spec Miata Tires
    The Board approved language to complete the transition from the Toyo Proxes R888 to the Toyo Proxes RA-1 tire in National Spec Miata competition.

    Beginning January 1, 2010, both tires will be eligible for National competition. On the third National race weekend in a respective Division, only the RA-1 will be permitted for dry and wet use. SCCA recognizes that race weekends may include multiple Nationally-sanctioned races.

    Both tires will be available through normal Toyo Tires distribution methods.

    National Championship Runoffs Classes
    The Board made language changes to the General Competition Rules (GCR) to include all 29 National classes in the Runoffs beginning in 2010. It also set a minimum number of cars required at the Runoffs (10) to recognize a National Champion. A full story on the subject is available here: http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?news=3805.

    Full details of all the business conducted at the October Board meeting will be available in the December 2009 Fastrack News, which will be available at SCCA.com Nov. 20.
    Peter Calhoun
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  10. #690
    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    The word is, it was passed 8 to 2 in favor of the Honda, with 3 abstaining from vote.



  11. #691
    Global Moderator Bill Bonow's Avatar
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    Default First Hot Item to Order

    Everyone will now need one of these (right Coop?)

    http://www.speedecor.com/hoachekiguoi.html
    Bill Bonow
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  12. #692
    Contributing Member John Merriman's Avatar
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    Default Parity anyone?

    Well, that's over, thank god. Now we'll find out what fun it will be to make to radically different engines perform axactly the same....both on the dyna and on the track!

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    Well 4 out of 5 ain't bad .....my faith in the SCCA and its' proccesses is improving.

    Good luck on the parity thing.....

  14. #694
    Classifieds Super License stonebridge20's Avatar
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    Well,... I truly am glad it's over.

    So now it's time to pony up boys! It's time to put your money where your mouth is!
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  15. #695
    Contributing Member Tigaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Merriman View Post
    Well, that's over, thank god. Now we'll find out what fun it will be to make to radically different engines perform axactly the same....both on the dyna and on the track!
    Sounds like you're mistaking this for the FC Ali head and Elgin cam/flywheel debacle.

    This sounds better than that mess.
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  16. #696
    Contributing Member racer27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonebridge20 View Post

    So now it's time to pony up boys! It's time to put your money where your mouth is!
    Time to rob that bank now...
    AMBROSE BULDO - Abuldo at AOL.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonebridge20 View Post
    Well,... I truly am glad it's over.

    You're not the only one.

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    I am willing to bet we have more pages of discussion, than we will have conversions in the first year.

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    Contributing Member racer27's Avatar
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    Default Next?

    How this is going to be managed and executed is going to be critical.

    Strong communication and transparency is vital to something as touchy as this. It would be great is someone directly involved in the process could commit to a monthly update in FAQ form. That would curtail allot of the speculation that is bound to happen should a vacuum develop.
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    Senior Member rmccown's Avatar
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    For those of you disposing of an old Kent, I'll take it off your hands, and only charge a minor disposal fee.
    Bob McCown
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer27 View Post
    How this is going to be managed and executed is going to be critical....
    The immediate answer to your question is this. HPD will now go off and make production versions of the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, ECU and other bespoke parts. When those are available, HPD will bring the complete engine to Quicksilver to be run on their dyno. The final ECU map and restrictor size will be set based on this testing. A CRB representative (most likely me) will be present to supervise this testing. This engine (or possibly multiple engines) will be offered to other engine builders for dyno testing so they can confirm the relative performance of the FIT and Kent engines.

    Because it will take some time for HPD to make the production castings, it will be a while before the testing can take place. (We're talking months here, so don't expect further information for quite a while.)

    Dave

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    Now if they will go ahead and approve the Ford Duratec motor, old Kent motors will be a dime a dozen for us vintage folk

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    After this weekend, I would be shocked if a Duratec will ever be installed into an American FF.

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    Senior Member rmccown's Avatar
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    I wonder if Ford Racing (et al) are stamping their feet right now.
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    Contributing Member TimW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmccown View Post
    I wonder if Ford Racing (et al) are stamping their feet right now.
    Rumor has it they did it in Topeka yesterday morning in front of the BoD...
    ------------------
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    Let's hope that we can all take the high road, Ford can show us that they were serious about maintaining their presence, and everyone can move forward. Most of the current FF competitors should likely have several rebuilds in their future before the non-Ford racers get their numbers up.

    Good luck to everyone in all camps!
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    Senior Member PCalhoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gomberg View Post
    This engine (or possibly multiple engines) will be offered to other engine builders for dyno testing so they can confirm the relative performance of the FIT and Kent engines.

    Dave
    Dave-
    Is this part of a broader checks and balances procecdure before the final Fit specifications are announced? Or is this afterwards simply to confirm the work of HPD & QSRE to the other builders?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCalhoun View Post
    Dave-
    Is this part of a broader checks and balances procecdure before the final Fit specifications are announced? Or is this afterwards simply to confirm the work of HPD & QSRE to the other builders?
    The latter. The specs are complete with the exception of the restrictor size, the map and the location of the Lambda sensor on the exhaust manifold.

    Dave

  29. #709
    Contributing Member Bernard Bradpiece's Avatar
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    Default Future of the Ford Engine

    All is not lost. The argument has been very stressed, but it’s not been clear what problem we have been solving. Now we have the Fit issue off the table, let’s now figure out what the problem is with FF – lets aim before firing, maybe a novel approach

    I think I am missing a trick here. Doing $12K+ conversions to old FF chassis is not going to bring in a host of new kids as has been suggested it might. There are limited kids interested in doing FF as we knew it. If kids want to get up the ladder they need to do FF in Europe, where both Duratec and FF 1600 thrive, or a professional class in the USA. Not only are there other classes more exciting if you want sexy (the new FB’s are really sexy and will be quite economic when they get the oil systems worked out), with new FF’s costing apparently $70K, few kids are going to be interested. The Fit is not going to change that. Reality is that FF 1600 is a club class and should be marketed as such.

    Those people who want to buy an engine, run at peak revs for 5 years without putting a spanner on it and roll out to the Nationals every year with a chance of winning, can convert to the Fit. We will end up with a half dozen or so Fits and the top guys (or in the main “geezers”) will continue to run the Ford engine if it makes a few more horsepower. If this is how we end up, with the Ford 1600 guys way in the majority, the Ford guys will push to have the Nationals limited to Ford and the Fit can be another class in the same race, or if Fit is so popular that dozens of FF’s get converted at $12K+ a pop, make no mistake, Honda will push for their own race. This mess of potage will be particularly apparent if we have the Duratec as a choice as well (let’s see how those economies work).

    I love my Ford, I have been driving them on and off since 1967 – my first FF, a Russell Alexis built by Jim’s son-in-law, a chunky young mechanic called Ralph Firman, had a 1500 engine (superseded two months later by the 1600 – deja vous all over again). The Cortina based class will live on if properly managed; it thrives in the UK and remains the cheapest bang for the buck by far in club racing. We have the pistons, cranks, rods and now block issues resolved, if we want the class to be sustained as a fun class, as Mike suggests, what we need to do now is get the tire issue resolved and move on.

    BB2
    Last edited by Bernard Bradpiece; 10.19.09 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Remove font details
    BB2

  30. #710
    Contributing Member tjcezar's Avatar
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    what cars will these conversion kits be made for all that accepted the kent or would each make/year of chassis require a different kit?
    Better to have raced for a day...
    than been a spectator for life!

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    Default Cars and kits

    The engine/ECU/intake/exhaust will be standard. You'll need an input shaft and adapter plate that will work with your particular gearbox, which is most likely either a Mk 9 or LD-200. I think Steve Lathrop is in the process of designing them now. You'll also need motor mounts that will be unique to each chassis, just as the motor mounts are unique to each chassis today. If you have a mid- to late-90 Van Diemen with the support that runs across the top of the engine, you'll likely have to do some design and fab work...at least until someone puts out a kit for the particular chassis.

    Larry Oliver
    International Racing Products
    Larry Oliver

  32. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjcezar View Post
    what cars will these conversion kits be made for all that accepted the kent or would each make/year of chassis require a different kit?

    I can speak for the cars that I know something about. I have drawn up the conversion for the Z10. I think that the Z10 is representative of many cars of that vintage. For the Fit engine to fit in a Z10, I need to make a new adapter for the Engine to the VW case that is slightly shorter than the standard Ford/Titan/Webster adapter common to almost all '70s vintage FFs. Taylor will be making a new input shaft to fit the Fit clutch and the release bearing setup will require an adapter to a Tilton unit. All of those parts should be under $1000.

    The motor mounts will have to be chassis specific. For the Z10, I am planning to not use the side mounts, but adapt to the front mounting points on the engine and mate those to the roll bar bulkhead. In the case of the Z10 this is the easiest way and is a big improvement over the original side mounts.

    For the Zink Z16, I will do an adapter that is a variation on the Z10 but provides the extra mounts necessary.

    For later model Citations, using the staffs gear box, I plan to either use the Honda adapter for the BD6 or do one that is the same thickness so we keep a common input shaft. For my new cars, with the LD200 gear box, I am making a 1/2" thick adapter that will mate the Honda Fit to the Ford bolt pattern.

    I think that the three adapters I plan on will cover most cars. The Fit engine is narrow but is nearly the same length from front to back as the Ford when the Ford is measures from the cylinder head to the back of the block.

    The Honda Fit engine dressed ready to install is price competitive with an good used Kent motor. I think that $12,000 will more than cover the cost of the motor and the installation in most cars. As a car builder, the Honda Fit motor reduces the cost of a new car substantually. Plus you can promis competitive power.

  33. #713
    Contributing Member racer27's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks for the info Steve, that helps. Based on speaking to some expert sources, I've started putting my budget together for conversion of my 1993 Citation FC ('87 Citation Frame designation). Below are the seed items on the list:

    Off the shelf pieces" - which means someone is making (or planning to make)them and they will be the same for someone with same car.
    --- engine
    --- bell housing adapter (Staff Box)
    --- front motor mount
    --- input shaft
    --- wiring harness
    --- high pressure fuel pump
    --- starter

    The following are custom (Specific to my conversion):
    --- tail pipe
    --- bodywork mine is not stock anyway
    --- clutch slave cylinder
    --- possible engine trunnion modifications

    As conversions are done, I'll plug in actaul costs and part #'s.

    Being that I'm converting from FC, I'll also need to swap out wheels, get rid of wings, change springs, get shocks re-valved.

    The Engine comes first, these other items can wait. I'll run FS till I get them done.
    Last edited by racer27; 10.20.09 at 10:34 AM.
    AMBROSE BULDO - Abuldo at AOL.com
    CURRENT: Mid Life Crisis Racing Chump/Lemons Sometime Driver (Dodge Neon)
    CURRENT: iKart Evo Rotax 125 Kart
    GONE: CITATION 87/93 FC - Loved that car
    GONE: VD RF-85FF , 1981 FIAT Spider Turbo

  34. #714
    Contributing Member PaulT's Avatar
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    Default Fit Height

    When I saw the Fit, I thought it was a LOT taller than a Kent. So it is probable that new rear body parts are likely to be needed.

    Paul

  35. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulT View Post
    When I saw the Fit, I thought it was a LOT taller than a Kent. So it is probable that new rear body parts are likely to be needed.

    Paul

    Anyone remember the "Pike" tail for FF". That will work perfectly. Stimola may know where a mold for that part is.

    That is what I am going to use for the Z10.

  36. #716
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    I can speak for the cars that I know something about. I have drawn up the conversion for the Z10. I think that the Z10 is representative of many cars of that vintage. For the Fit engine to fit in a Z10, I need to make a new adapter for the Engine to the VW case that is slightly shorter than the standard Ford/Titan/Webster adapter common to almost all '70s vintage FFs. Taylor will be making a new input shaft to fit the Fit clutch and the release bearing setup will require an adapter to a Tilton unit. All of those parts should be under $1000.

    The motor mounts will have to be chassis specific. For the Z10, I am planning to not use the side mounts, but adapt to the front mounting points on the engine and mate those to the roll bar bulkhead. In the case of the Z10 this is the easiest way and is a big improvement over the original side mounts.
    Steve, be sure post when you have Z10 price and availability info firmed up. Thx! Stan
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  37. #717
    Contributing Member Lee Shumosic's Avatar
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    Default To late but couldn't resist

    I don't race FF and since starting out in 1986 have only run spec series / cars (Skippy, SRF and now FE). But after reading 20 pages of posts I just don't fully understand the logic.
    It's a known fact that there are differances between a good kent and a ok kent. Loosly defined as regional and national motors. So if a regional guy wants to compete on the national level he has to spend money on his lump to get it to that understood and accepted level of performance (assuming skill and car prep are the same).
    So, one could argue that if you placed the Fit at the national level of peformance (HP & Tq) both could compete for a national race / tiltle. Again, if the regional guy wanted to compete he'd spend money on his kent or get a Fit.
    Or, you could place the Fit at the regional level (both regional kent and Fit would be at a disatvantage to the national kent). But the'll still be a regional kent that can't beat the regional Fit. So the regional guy will spend mony to get an atvantage.
    It's like circular logic.......

    It's all about longevity.

    As major Clipton said...."it's madness....madness"

    Lee
    LJS Motorsports

  38. #718
    Contributing Member racer27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Clayton View Post
    Steve, be sure post when you have Z10 price and availability info firmed up. Thx! Stan
    Ditto... Thanks
    AMBROSE BULDO - Abuldo at AOL.com
    CURRENT: Mid Life Crisis Racing Chump/Lemons Sometime Driver (Dodge Neon)
    CURRENT: iKart Evo Rotax 125 Kart
    GONE: CITATION 87/93 FC - Loved that car
    GONE: VD RF-85FF , 1981 FIAT Spider Turbo

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