Reality on FF Engines

[PDS]

Hello All,

My first post here. I have been reading as much as possible trying to get up a steep learning curve.

A little boring history first. I ran Skippy in the early eighties in the Crossle 32/35F, then in the Ninetys had a very successful 8 year stint driving a friends 240-z CP in SVRA/HSR. Lately I've had the pleasure (?) of running in Grand Am - on someone elses nickel/dime/quarter!

OK, now to the point. I've been in love with FF since I was a kid and miss the atmosphere of the Vintage scene. I'm seriously contemplating going the Monoposto route. However, I will have some serious budget constraints. I would like to buy a complete car and would plan on doing 4-5 races p/year.

Now, I just finished reading a thread on the purchase/rebuild costs of FF engines - this whole engine thread has me very concerned. So of course I have been running various scenarios through my head to lead me to the justification that my plan is doable...

My thoughts/questions; In vintage, if I were to use a conservative red line - say 6400RPM, how would that effect 1) competitiveness 2) Engine longevity

Is it realistic to get 40-50 hrs on a decent Kent if revs are kept that low?

How about the old style motor?

Of course I'm competitive and will want to run likewise. Is this a pipedream?

Just how reliable/unreliable are the Ford motors. Realistically, I would need to get 3-4 seasons @ 4-5 races a year out of a rebuild.

Thanks in advance.

Paul

[Tim FF19]

That is a lot of time on the motor but it is not extreme. If you use the new style pistons and are careful to not hit the flywheel on curbs etc your plan is not unreasonable. You could use a higher redline then you are considering as well. Since you are looking at vintage vs Nationals, being down a few HP really isnt an issue.

In a nutshell:
1) Don't hit the ground with the flywheel! This puts a huge load on the crank which will ruin your whole day if it breaks. Put a skid block on the transmission adaptor.
2) Forged pistions so the ring lands don't get beat out. I don't know the vintage rules but hopefully they do not insist on cast OEM pistons.
3) Lap the valves once a season. We used to do it every weekend between qualifying and the race. It aint that hard.

If you only rev the motor to 6400 the FV's may beat you. You can use 6700 without a problem. You will still get the life you are looking for. These engines are actually pretty robust which is why there has been an entire class designed around them for 40 years!

This isn't to say you won't blow up a motor but the chances will be quite small of that happening if the motor you use is professionally built and well maintained.

Good Luck

[PDS]

Thanks Tim,

I kind of pulled 6400RPM out of my .......hat!

I'm really interested in the concept of a lower rev limit leading to much longer engine life.

It's funny, in the Skippy cars we were limited to 6200RPM in the race series and regularly pulled high 58 sec laps at LRP.

I wonder just how much HP is being given away with a lower (below 7K) limit?

Thanks again for the encouraging words.

[rickb99]

We run the 2 liter not the 1600. But we do live in Ivey's back yard and stay at Motel 6's when racing out of town.

Almost 95% of our Vintage FF's have Ivey engines (and there's a bunch of um). I'd say at least 75% of our local club racers (and there's a bunch of um) use Ivey's.

Those I have talked to say, Jay Ivey says... Don't bring the bottom end back for 2 years (when you have the good stuff in it) but do the head once a year. That's for guys who pack a lotta racing in to a season. Perhaps as many as 6 to 8 (3 day events with maybe 9 track sessions per event) vintage race weekends a year. Club guys do even more.. like 8 to 10 weekends.

I'm guessing that's with engines having "vintage legal" parts and built for making best HP. If you TELL who ever you select as an engine builder that you're more interested in LIFE rather then that last 4 HP, they would build the engine with tighter clearances (surrendering that last ounze of HP).

Strange, I attend all but one SOVREN vintage races, numerous club races and track the formula car stuff closely. I cannot recall when I last saw somebody loose a 1600 engine up here.

The 2 Liter engines built to milk that final bit of performance are good for about 1,500 miles or so at SOLID output and can be 'pushed' to 2,000 miles (head at 800 miles). But, some of our local vintage S2 guys running the same engine give me a blank stare when I say that. They do their own engine work building to pretty much 'factory tolerances' and run them for 15 to 20 race weekends.

Assuming the parts remain GOOD in the engine, Ivey rebuilds (not remanufacture) are reasonable. Part of keeping the parts good is letting him open er up at the proper time to take a look see.

[Brian]

Fast guys can keep the revs to 6400 - 6500 and run fast - it's more about corner speed and not using the brakes so much as it is the miraculous horsepower between 6500 and 6800 rpm, honestly. And a modern engine with a cast steel crank and forged pistons should go 50 hours, with maybe a valve refresh half way.

Brian

[Tom Valet]

Paul,

We have run a 1600 in our Swift FF for the past 4 years. Like you, I heard the horror stories about engine rebuild costs and the supposedly low number of hours that the engines last. However, I have now done a compete 180 degree turn-around on my opinions of the FF engine.

In four years we have not had a single engine related failure. And that is with my son driving in Nationals using a redline significantly above 6400 rpms.

Out of an abundance of caution, I had the engine rebuild every second year at about 25 hours, over the winter each time. I simply did not want to deal with an engine rebuild during a racing season, which is short enough here in the Northeast. Each time the engine was running perfect after the 25 hours, good compression, good power, and did not "need" to be rebuilt. I have no idea how much longer it would have lasted, but personally I can believe the 40 to 50 hour estimates.

Short engine life and high rebuild costs used to be a pet peeve of mine because I, too, thought this would be the single biggest cost of racing for us. But as I said, I now completely feel the other way--the engine builders have done a great job over the years of refining and perfecting the compenents in an FF engine.

With Miata engines costing over $10k to build, and the issues the FBs are having with the motorcycle engines, I think FF engines are not really a concern any more.

Now, as for tire costs, dont get me started......something hopefully you shouldnt have to worry about in Vintage.

Take care.

Tom

[Brian]

I know guys in vintage racing circles who never rebuild their engines. One guy ran what amounted to a FFord engine with twin webers in a sports racer for 15 years, running a half-dozen events each year. Sure it was tired, but it got him around the track in a fine fashion and he had a lot of fun. It's all about expectations. He only owned five gears for his Hewland too, and it was a five speed! Saved a ton of money on gear oil and gasket goop over 15 years!

Racing, particularly in vintage, has a wide spread of fun factors. I firmly believe (having started in production cars in vintage) that Formula Ford, and in particular Club Ford with vintage clubs, is the cheapest racing this side of a Vintage Vee. A bugeye will cost a lot more to run than a Formula Ford, and don't get me started on Mini's... If I were to build you a competitive Mini vintage racing powertrain from scratch, you would not get change from $20K. The last serious 1070cc A-series I built cost over $10K, and that didn't include the cylinder head.

Brian

[stephen wilson]

Here's my thoughts. Around 7000 RPM is the point where harmonics are dangerous to the crankshaft. At operating speeds above or below this point they are pretty reliable. On an "original" type crank I wouldn't run more than 20 or so hours before crack checking the crank, especially if shifting near 7K. The improved cranks, as mentioned, can be run much longer. I'm not sure how much shifting @ 6500 would affect service life.

The crankshaft on my RF78 just failed after around 20 race weekends, with a few test days. I was shifting @ 6800-7000, depending on the track. I may be changing that to 6700-6800 !

In hind-sight, I should have done that $3500 preventative rebuild one season sooner instead of trying to save some money buy running "just a little" longer.

Oh yeah, I guess I'm lazy, but I didn't pull the head once in that time. I did a leak-down check every winter, and they stayed quite good. The car was still was very competitive.

Steve

[PDS]

Many thanks for the thoughtful replies.......

Although I'm not in the market immediately - I like to think things through - your advice has been reassuring.

My plans are to go Vintage FF - hopefully Monoposto - and be patient when looking for the right package.

I think I can then do a program that makes sense and will allow me to sleep at night!

If any of you are located near Rochester, NY and would entertain showing me your Ford I'd love to do some "test fittings"

Most Sincerely,

Paul

[flat broke]

I started vintage racing a Merlyn FF four seasons ago. Lost a motor (and geabox adapter) at the end of my first season. It nearly finished my racing. I was lucky to sell the car as a roller and was able to buy a Club ford.

Your first season, you need to focus on seat time and driving. Lots of practice days, finish all your sessions, get as much track time as possible. Don't spend that time thinking the motor is going to grenade on you. It will kill the fun.

I would seriously advocate buiding a reliable motor with a billet steel crank. Put in a rev limiter set to 6800 rpm. Tell people that your motor isn't legal but that you will only run it your "rookie" season. Get out there and have fun. If you get allot of hassle with that approach, you are probably running with the wrong group anyway.

You will stress a motor more at this early stage (over revs, missed shifts, engine braking and the occasional spin across the curb) while you are on the steep part of the learning curve.

When you have a season under your belt, sell your crank and build a legal motor.

[Cobra]

PDS: Great questions and super responses. I too am entering the Vintage arena here in Texas with CVAR and RMVR. Sportscar Performance is building a Merlyn Mk 20 for me and is methodically crack testing everything and then preparing the car with confidence.

The FF 1600 engine maintenance costs have also been a concern of mine, however, speaking with some of the guys here, what has been stated above really validates the responses I've gotten. Best wishes in your quest with Vintage FF.

[Albatross]

PDS - Well, what did you decide to do 2009. Any interesting tid-bits that you can pass along. Any recommendations based on your first season that you would care to share. What did you use for your self-imposed "max" RPM? What did you do for an engine? Please bring us up to date, even if you decided to wait and see.

[rickb99]

Hello All,

Is it realistic to get 40-50 hrs on a decent Kent if revs are kept that low? Paul

One more comment. That is EXACTLY what Jay Ivey is telling his customers who run hard to win!

[Albatross]

AND, that's exactly how long I intend to run my engine. Our class winner in SOVREN for 2009 has just had HER engine rebuilt by IVEY for 2010. Total hours on her engine: 57. Of course, an engine oil sample at the end of each season is a good idea. Getting her engine rebuilt is bad news for us, but we'll give her a good run-and then some!

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

Our class winner in SOVREN for 2009 has just had HER engine rebuilt by IVEY for 2010. Total hours on her engine: 57.

She obviously knows how to take care of a race engine. Good for her!

[Clyde]

Paul; I believe you can race competitively if you stay within the FRCCA "Club Class" rules. They have the largest field of F/F type racecars. Get the inside information from John Heckman at frcca@ptd.net I think you will be pleased as to how competitive you can be and at such a reasonable cost. I know you will wind up doing more that 5 events a year and with their engine regulations the Kent engine lives very well. Check it out, even if all you do is get to see another option.

[racerxlilbro]

One more comment. That is EXACTLY what Jay Ivey is telling his customers who run hard to win!

At the risk of jinxing myself - I too have an Ivey, and my car is extremely competitive, and is on the 50 hour program.

I had one horrendous over-rev after Jay had done the engine. I asked him if I should just pull it out and send it to him for a look-over. He reminded me we'd used the good new pistons, steel crank - said to forget about it, and just keep running it. You won't find a more honest, straightforward guy to deal with.

I think the initial cost of having an engine done by Jay is substantial. However, when you look at that cost spread over what amounts to 2 or 3 seasons of really competitive racing - it's really cheap. I'm fairly confident I was spending more on engines when I raced KT100 karts back in the day.

The other important consideration is the support you get from somebody like Jay. I can't tell you how helpful he's been - when I called to ask really stupid questions, or when he would just happen to appear in the paddock at an event. To me, that's priceless.

So, when we run my car, we think of the engine as the funny red lump in the back. I almost NEVER worry about it.

[rickb99]

[quote=stonebridge20;247936]

She obviously knows how to take care of a race engine. Good for her!

Albatross, is talking about Carolyn Dimmer, the SOVREN FF Champion with an Ivey engine. She does 8 to 9 race weekends a year. 2 day events have 2 hours on track and 3 day events have 3 hours 5 minutes of racing. So she puts about 21 hours a year racing and perhaps 4 hours of T&T or, 25 hours a season on the engine.

Looking around the SOVREN paddock last year at the biggest event, I couldn't find an FF that was NOT running an Ivey engine. And, they do NOT blow up!

Carolyn runs against a 22 car field and is ALWAYS at the pointy end of the field. If there's somebody ahead of her, she DOES NOT hold back to save anything. She's one determined woman to win every race she enters and the guys behind her are determined to beat her. It's FF racing at its finest.

[Albatross]

"The other important consideration is the support ..." More than just a few times Jay as walked up to my paddock site and asked me "how's it going." I suspect that everyone without exception has over revved their engine. Well, if you have hurt the engine, perhaps it will begin to show in some loss of oil pressure getting worse as the race or weekend proceeds. From one of the recent surveys, I've concluded that engine failures seem to occur more often due to "oil problems" created one way or another to human factors: loosened coupling, insufficent oil in resevoir, oil plug falling off, over rev, etc. The biggest change I've made to my car this winter is the installation of a large low oil pressure warning light set at 30 psi to protect a very good Jay Ivey engine.

[Daryl DeArman]

I think the initial cost of having an engine done by Jay is substantial. However, when you look at that cost spread over what amounts to 2 or 3 seasons of really competitive racing - it's really cheap. I'm fairly confident I was spending more on engines when I raced KT100 karts back in the day.

Brad!!! You're going to rope this guy into a FKent with comparisons like that. Making the FKent sound cheap, when in reality he may not know how expensive KT100 was back in the day!!! I don't believe amortizing the initial cost over only 3 seasons is going to make that Kent look cheap.

I don't beleive we ever raced against each other in KT100...When is "back in the day" to you? I had TNR motors in 90, switched to Flemming in 91 and 92. Did IKF Reg7 and the Grands in 92 under the Flemming tent. Had one pole at a National just throw my chain on the warm up lap....classic HERO to a ZERO in about .1 seconds. Fun times!

[racerxlilbro]

Brad!!! You're going to rope this guy into a FKent with comparisons like that. Making the FKent sound cheap, when in reality he may not know how expensive KT100 was back in the day!!! I don't believe amortizing the initial cost over only 3 seasons is going to make that Kent look cheap.

I don't beleive we ever raced against each other in KT100...When is "back in the day" to you? I had TNR motors in 90, switched to Flemming in 91 and 92. Did IKF Reg7 and the Grands in 92 under the Flemming tent. Had one pole at a National just throw my chain on the warm up lap....classic HERO to a ZERO in about .1 seconds. Fun times!

Ha! Good point, Daryl! I remember blueprinted Yamaha's were about $1,500. I had Pitts do one, Larry who worked at JHR with me re-did it...and I may have had Doug do one for me. I ran one national (Adams in about '93). But between clutches, top-end rebuilds, and pipe of the week - I definitely was spending more, and racing less.

[Brian]

I think the bottom end of a current Formula Ford engine is good to about 8500 rpm. I had what amounted to a hot-rod formula ford engine with a stock ford crank, forged pistons, stock ford rods, a light flywheel at about 9 lbs, and I ran it for 3 seasons at 7500 rpm and didn't think twice. I think the Achilles heel of a current engine is the valve train, specifically the springs, and valve float. I have kissed the exhaust valves (with the cam retardation, we leave the exhaust valves hanging down there a little longer as the piston chases the valve up the cylinder). I think installing new valves and springs every once in a while is good insurance. I also think the valve job is critical, and if the leakdown is OK, then don't lap the valves! I have never heard a cylinder head specialist say anything good about lapping valves for any reason.

Just my two cents on this old old thread.

Brian

[rickb99]

....The biggest change I've made to my car this winter is the installation of a large low oil pressure warning light set at 30 psi to protect a very good Jay Ivey engine.

Wow, that's pretty high for a warning light. We have a 20 psi light on our 2 liter and Jeff most certainly has that on when pulling off the track. Pressure gauge is down around 10 to 15 at idle post race (about 60 psi when up on the revs). Sometimes the 20 pounder even comes on at 3A/3B at Pacific.

[Albatross]

During the heat of battle, my normal oil pressure is typically 45 - 50 psi. If I see the 30 psi light on I will be alerted to look at the oil pressure gauge as a secondary source to verify something "may" be wrong. I prefer the earlier warning the 30 psi will provide. The light is advisory. The action required with the light (on) and lower oil pressure will be considered under the current prevailing operating situation. I want the extra cushion the earlier light (30 psi) will provide at speed.