June Fastracks

[wmunsey]

Anyone seen the June Fastracks? Looks like there have been several changes to the FA engine list.

[Rennie Clayton]

Suh-weeeeeeet.

/ I smell a very fast Sprints coming up...

[bill gillespie]

Rennie,

Sprints '09 ????? What 2.0, or 2.5 are ypu thinking of???? Many new options, even with the SIR.

Flame away , boys.
Bill

[bill gillespie]

OK, I re-read, and changes are effective june 1st, 2009. get your 4 valve 2.5 liter motors ready boys....just in time for the sprints, and plenty of time for the runoffs.

Regards,
Bill

[RSiler]

I have no dog in this fight, as they say, but I'm curious: What engine(s) are folks thinking of with this new rules change? I thought I heard that the current Mazda pro engine will not fit in something like a Swift 008 or 014...seems to me the Honda S2000 engine would make a great engine if it fit...change the injection, put in a dry sump, and you have a dead reliable alternative to the Toyota that makes about 240HP (which probably won't be enough now).

I ran a fellow with an RT40 a few years back...wonderful cars, but the engines sure don't last very long!

[Rick Ross]

I haven't had a chance to study the Fastrack yet, but could some of you experienced Atlantic guys explain the potential short and long term significance of this rule change?

[jmz]

HELLO ALL, TOOK A LOOK , IT LOOKS LIKE 016 SWIFT WITH THE MAZDA MOTORS, STARTING OUT WITH 300 h.p. BUT MORE IMPORTANT , BIG TORQUE, I'M GUESSING WE , WITH 1600 TOYOTA MOTORS CAN GET OUT THE CHECK BOOKS OUT LOOKING FOR MORE h.p. BUT I DON'T THINK WE CAN FIND THE TORQUE ! MY FIRST QUICK COMMENT , AFTER ABOUT FIVE MINUTES OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL BROUGHT THIS ON , WHEN WE WERE AT THE CONVENTION ALL I HEARD WAS NO MORE RULES CHANGES TILL THE END OF THE YEAR, WHAT HAPPEN ? LOOKS LIKE ITS GOT TO TAKE A LOT MORE MONEY TO RUN IN FRONT AT A NATIONAL , LIKE TO HEAR EVERYONE'S OPINION , Ben Johnson, my buddy need's all those 016's to stay in his pro deal, he needs all the cars he can get ! john z

[aspenripper]

sounds like 008s and 014s are worth about 20K now

[bill gillespie]

Guys,

The 016 chassis was approved, but not the bodywork....tunnel/ wing width etc. Also, the MZR has been detuned to around 280hp for reliability, but a 31mm SIR should lower that number signiicantly.

I hope someone with real SIR experience will chime in on power reductions.

Last rant: as someone with considerable investment in 1600cc engine development, I don't think much more power is available regardless of checkbook size.

This has the potential to be good for guys coming into FA, but not so much for current FA guys, and oh btw, probably need a new gearbox if you upgrade to a 2.0, or 2.5 torquemeister.

Licking my wounds,
Bill

[Dave Gomberg]

Those of you who somehow think the changes to the engine table allow the 016 to be run are reading this incorrectly. While larger displacement engines (with SIRs where appropriate) are now allowed, the 016 chassis as run in the pro series does not meet all the FA specifications. If and when the 016 is allowed in FA, it would be in a spec line in Table 2 (page 172 in the GCR) where particular limitations would be placed on those cars to put them on a par with the existing cars.

Dave

[bill gillespie]

According to the SCCA tech manager, the o16a is currently legal for FS, but not FA. He sid the issue will be discussed with the F/SR group.

[Stan Clayton]

The larger displacement engines (w/SIR as appropriate) have been permitted in CSR for a couple of years now, and we have not seen a rush to that configuration. Competitors there have not been convinced that there is sufficient advantage to warrant the considerable expense of a installing a larger engine in their chassis, so they aren't doing it in any numbers.

That said, for someone building a new car, the SIR approach can make sense as it promises much longer time-between-overhauls, similar to the situation with the Zetec in FC. Just don't consider it from a performance-advantage perspective. If the initial SIR sizes result in a performance advantage, the CRB will not hesitate to reduce the SIR and/or add weight. The idea is to bring in new and competitive, and long lasting, engine options without creating an overdog situation.

The rest of the consolidations are designed to eliminate the iniquities that had crept into the FA engine table over the years, with some engines of a particular size having inherent advantages over others. The new table levels the playing field, with the nod given to the freedoms (intake, bore/stroke, etc.) that had been extended to selected engines now available to all. It was either that or take back all those priviledges, and we didn't want to render anyone's engine non-compliant at the stroke of a pen. (I'm looking at you, Bill... )

So keep racing your Atlantic. If you were competitive before, you remain competitive under the new table. If you weren't competitive before, the new table doesn't change anything.

Hope to see you all at the Sprints!

[KevinFirlein]

strictly out of curiousity , what was the hp range targeted for with the various SIR's for the various combos. Torque band is another issue all together but can be dealt with at later dates if anyone actually takes the BoD up on this.

No hidden gotchas in this question , just pure curiousity, as the power levels of the current engines ;if one is inclined to plop down the $$, is waaaaay ahead of the former generic " FA's make 240hp"

[Dave Gomberg]

Kevin:

The target was the current engines. We aren't trying to force anyone to change engines to remain competitive. There are members of the advisory committee who have a vested interest in the current engines. As Stan said, if we got it wrong, adjustments can be made. The big advantage to the restricted, larger displacement engines is longevity - once they've been installed.

Dave

[Stan Clayton]

Kevin, the CRB chose SIR sizes that in GT3 are producing hp in the same range as current competitive Atlantic engines. Of course, what exact number one gets depends on whose dyno we're talking about, so I can't give you a precise number.

[KevinFirlein]

wasnt looking for an exact number a range of 5-10 would be fine. My question was being asked to see if the BoD was aiming at the old school generic 240 or the more real world number which at this point is 255-265 or greater if you want constant rebuilds and blow ups.

"the current egnines" can have a gap of 20+ hp down thru the grid.

[stonebridge20]

Kevin, the CRB chose SIR sizes that in GT3 are producing hp in the same range as current competitive Atlantic engines. Of course, what exact number one gets depends on whose dyno we're talking about, so I can't give you a precise number.

Stan, I wouldn't use the SIR program in GT3 or GTL as an example of a success story


.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, I wouldn't use the SIR program in GT3 or GTL as an example of a success story.

The contretemps in GT have nothing to do with how much hp the SIRs make.

[davecadrealty]

even if you end up matching the hp with restrictors those larger motors will still have more torque. taking away the hp advantage does'nt meen that all of the torque advantage will be lost. from experience those larger motors should have a major torque advantage. they should smoke the 1.6l off the corners, but I guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. I believe the new Stohr being developed is supposed to be a 2.0l.

[stonebridge20]

The contretemps in GT have nothing to do with how much hp the SIRs make.

Contretemps (n): an unfavorable chance event.

So your saying that the SIR program in GT3 and GTL has nothing to do with the fact that GT3 is all but dead and the GTL guys have been fighting tooth and nail for three years now about SIR sizes between different engines?

Stan, You know as well as I do that the only way an SIR program would work in Atlantic or any other SCCA class is for the CRB to invest in an independent dyno program on all engines involved in the "equalization" attempt. That will not happen! The use of SIR's to equalize different engines in a single class is a great idea in theory. The problem is that the CRB is going to use hearsay data in Atlantic as they have been doing in GT3 and GTL for the past three years with no success!
If the SIR is such a great "tool" then why did it not fix the Pinto/Zetec "equalization"?
This is just another can of the same worms the CRB has opened and dumped into another class. Good luck with it all!

[jmz]

good, bad , or otherwise, what the heck was broke that needed to be fixed, i can spend all the money on the old Toyota, but as had been said above , can't generate the torque you are going to need , would like to know who bought a 016 AND DIDN'T WANT TO RUN IN THE PRO SERIES , so lets call the CRB and find a place to dominate ! and when do this , middle of the season , makes sence ! i think not , i think we need to let SCCA know our thoughts , again, sure wish i knew what was wrong with the rules , and just how many , and who had a problem ? i just keep hearing from the convention , we are not going to change the rules in mid season , just at the end of the year , i guess i was in the casino , not the convention ! john z call me with your comment's maybe i missed something , 561 262 3321

[Dave Gomberg]

jmz:

Go back and read post #10 in this thread. The 016 has not been approved in FA.

Dave

[KevinFirlein]

never did get an positive answer to my question so I went digging around. After a quick trip over to the GT forum and a few hours of making calls to GT3 teams running various engines they tell me their power levels are 270 - 280+ ish with the SIR. If thats what is intended for FA fine, Just dont know why Stan or Dave wont discuss numbers when there had to be a target number discussed in the meeting where this table came from.

[Stan Clayton]

never did get an positive answer to my question so I went digging around. After a quick trip over to the GT forum and a few hours of making calls to GT3 teams running various engines they tell me their power levels are 270 - 280+ ish with the SIR. If thats what is intended for FA fine, Just dont know why Stan or Dave wont discuss numbers when there had to be a target number discussed in the meeting where this table came from.

I'm surprised none of them told you they were getting 300+ horsepower...

OTOH, when they're poor-mouthing the CRB they only get 240...

Since you are fixated on the actual hp number I will tell you that we ran a representative pro-built Cosworth-Duratec 2.3L engine with a 31mm SIR on the same dyno as my fresh Toyota 1600cc 4AGE. With open mapping and most of a day spent tuning for max power, the big motor made over 300 unrestricted, but one peak hp less with the 31mm SIR than my Toyota. On that dyno my Toyota makes a bit more than 250, but definitely less than 260. Your dyno may vary.

Off for the day...won't be back until late.

Stan

[KevinFirlein]

now was it really so difficult to post that

[Rennie Clayton]

Hey, is this the thread where we all post our personal FA motor dyno numbers? Awesome - who's next, Firlein?

I'm more or less kidding - but Stan did post our personal numbers here for you, presumably competitive ones at that given the results we've been able to achieve with it. Despite what people may say, the top line numbers for FA have not changed significantly since 2002/2003. But the SCCA is not realistically in a position to fund building and testing a truly, verifiably competitive FA engine to use as a test mule to compare SIR's - and I don't see much else here in terms of ponying up with personal competition-sensitive info like real HP ranges. I don't mean the speculative, "well it's more like 255/265/275/whatever" type of anecdote - but beyond a doubt known HP ranges from a properly adjusted and calibrated dyno.

But that's the nature of FA - we're going to show up at the Sprints and see where we stack up in the grand scheme of things. And if need be, we'll analyze the rules to see what can be done, and be back in the fall with a faster bullet. Simple as that. Let's go racin'!


Cheers,
Rennie

[KevinFirlein]

sure Rennie, I guessing off the same dyno as yours ours was 256.9 back in 03. There are pieces that have been developed since then that do in fact increase top end hp. But as with other things in life it still matters how you use it that really counts.

however my question had little to do with everyone unzipping and whipping them out but rather trying to find out what range was being targeted which I would have to presume was brought in conference up and should be known by an ad hoc and CRB member and not be a secret from the membership. "current FA level" is a hugely varying number and "GT3 spec" is meaningless to the FA competitors.

thats all I was asking. We can save the debate for how much hp a 31mm SIR can actually produce when the motor in question has been built from ground up to suit it ( as the chart allows for) at a later date.

[Rennie Clayton]

Kevin,

Understood completely regarding the intent of your questioning - and who is the arbiter of what constitutes "competitive" anyway, especially given the potentially moving target presented by FA? Case in point - you had ~5hp more than me in '03. Does that make me uncompetitive?

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of developments come out of this tweak to the rules. We'll be sticking with our venerable Toyota lump for the time being, but like I said earlier, I'm smelling a very quick Sprints coming up...


Cheers,
Rennie

/PS - I'm a Loyning guy. Not sure if that was the same dyno you were presuming...

[KevinFirlein]

same dyno as I am also a loyning guy and always will be when it comes to toyotas.

[Stan Clayton]

Sorry I'm late, but I didn't get home until after 11 last night.

At any rate, this discussion highlights why I don't like discussing actual numbers. If your engine builder just told you that your lump made 240, you may be wondering if you're down on power. Or if he told you you're getting 270, you may be feeling a bit complacent. But I wouldn't be either concerned or complacent, as there appears to be more variability in dynos than there is between well prepared National FA engines. The 'usual suspects' have been building these engines for 30 years now, and there is very little unknown about them. Just bring your A-game to the track, because we sure will be!