Vintage Formula Fords

[Albatross]

Anybody have ideas of selling price ranges of vintage formula fords: Considering: Winkelmann 1970, Titan Mk 6 or Crossle 20 only; all to be in excellent condition, low time Ivey engine and ready to race.

[provamo]

can it truly be a vintage car with an ivey engine, i dont recall him being a builder during that era? just wondering...

[Brian]

I don't really understand vintage Formula Ford pricing, it seems to follow fashion and lust more than logic... the range can be quite a lot. Factors include the cost of the restoration, the quality of the work, the desirability of the car, and the performance potential of the car. Of the cars you mention, I would say that the Titan may have the highest performance potential followed by the Crossle, both are fairly desirable, I suspect the Crossle is better supported with parts availability than the other two.

Prices will range from $12K to $25K for cars fitting your basic description, depending on if the seller actually wants to sell, if the buyer truly wants to have that particular car, how shiny it is, if the seller needs to recoup the cost of the restoration (it costs the bomb to restore one of these cars properly), and so on. Bear in mind it's perfectly possible to have a car that looks perfect but is junk on a very basic level, and to have an excellent car with more, shall we say, "patina" than is currently fashionable in vintage racing circles...

[Larry]

I agree completely with the previous comments. Right now the vintage market is rather soft, so you should be able to find a good buy--meaning about 20% lower than the same car would have brought two years ago.

I sold a very nice Lotus 51 about 8 years ago for about $20K. There are faster cars, but not prettier cars. Currently I'm working on a Titan Mk 6. The only parts that are a real concern are rear uprights, and fortunately Andy Antipas stocks them. He can also produce most of the fiberglass parts. On the Titan everything else is either easy to fabricate or off-the-shelf production car.

When I'm through with my Titan, I expect to have around $15K in it. If I charged $1/hour for my labor, I'd have to get $20K when it was finished. Unless you enjoy the renovation process, you're much better off buying a completed, freshened car.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Andy Antipas]

I run the titan and winkelmann registries. From wishbones to bodywork, I can supply just about every piece you need to repair or restore a Titan Formula Ford. Wink parts are more challenging, but the owners network usually knows where to find parts.

When looking at vintage fords (or any formula car for that matter) chassis condition is most important because it is the most expensive part to get right. Most of these old cars ran water through the frame tubes. Corrosion can be a problem. However, many chassis have been repaired and/or converted to run the water outside the frame tubes. It is always cheaper, in the long run, to buy a well restored/prepared car than to buy a basket case and restore it. That goes for vintage, club, or modern fords. As always, do your homework and buyer beware.

In vintage racing, the cars are the stars. Vintage car preparation can be all over the map. However, vintage formula cars are usually presented to a high visual standard. Vintage cars usually cost more than club fords because they are restored to a higher standard, and they are classics which ads to their value. They represent where and how FF began and are preserved for those reasons. It is not just about the racing it is also about history. When I race my Mk6 titan in local SCCA club ford events, I get a constant stream of people coming over to look at my car. Many of them raced titans when they were new...... We (humans) love nostalgia and revisiting our youth....

That is not to say vintage fords are not raced HARD! They are. I race club ford and vintage ford, and based on my experience the top drivers are cut from the same stuff. I would also argue that there are more vintage fords (larger grids) racing across the country than club or modern fords. Vintage race paddocks are usually a bit lower key than SCCA paddocks and are a good place to learn the basics of racing. That is what is so great about this sport. We have lots of choices!

Please visit www.titancars.com and www.pallisercars.com for more information.

Best, Andy Antipas

[Roland V. Johnson]

Andy pretty much sums it up. The Vintage market so far seems to be relatively stable. A good car will cost anywhere from $15K to $25K. Buy the nicest car you can find, you cannot duplicate it for that price. The Titan Mk-6 brings the most money out here because the people at the front of the field, for the most part, are driving one. I think the Crossle is also a great car, there just aren't many of them running up front around here. About the early engine builders, most of them aren't in the business any more. Most people around here are running the up-rated engine. Parts for the Cortina are getting hard to find, and no one has shown that a Cortina can run with an uprated. If you are looking at a car, get someone who knows FF's to inspect the car with/for you. Any good race shop should do it for a fair price. While you can never absolutely know a FF until you take it completely apart, a good inspection can save the buyer. Many a shiny car is a costly mechanical nightmare!

[tstrong]

I think Andy, Roland, etc are right on the money. Vintage cars and racing is all about the balance between preserving really cool old cars and the history and nostalgia that goes along with them, and the competition and desire to win. As Andy states the front of the pack at many of the vintage events are drivers who can and have held their own at the front of the SCCA regional and national ranks. One point that I would like to add (and this is not an advertisement for any particular club) is that here on the west coast we have "The Series" which consists 3 classes: Vintage (pre 73 on Dunlops), Club (73 to 82ish on AR's), and Modern (83 to current on AR's) in one group. To me it is very interesting to see the differences/ evolution of the cars and performance levels. Many of the vintage cars (Titan Mk6) have less drag than the Club (Crossle 35) So get really good draft passes, but they don't slow as well under braking so often get passed under braking. The Swift can't be drafted by anything but you can stay with them in the tight stuff. To me it is just cool to see where the other cars and driver are strong and where they are weak. The hard tires brings the playing field closer to level and makes for some great dice with differing eras of cars while still giving the ability to win your class against comparable cars (vintage vs club vs modern).

Also totally agree with the posts above that you will save a bunch of money by buying the nicest most competitive car you can find as opposed to trying to "restore" a basket case vintage car. As a guy who has way too many Titans I can attest to the fact that Andy Antipas can provide whatever you need when it comes to Titans.

[M.Sauce]

The most competitive cars back in the day and even now in Vintage FF racing (pre 73)are as follows: Lotus 69,Merlyn MK20,Titan Mk6B,Merlyn MK11,etc..Look at the race results from 1972 and you will see what was winning.In our Vintage group in Texas we don't have any Lotus 69"s but we have many Merlyns 11-20 and 2 Titan MK6's that are very competitive. Just my opinion and based on results the last few years.But more than anything it is the drivers that make these Vintage FF's go well.Mike Sauce

[Rick Kirchner]

Royale RP-16s do pretty good as well, especially with some of the alterante bodywork that was developed back in the day.

[EffOne]

Anybody have ideas of selling price ranges of vintage formula fords: Considering: Winkelmann 1970, Titan Mk 6 or Crossle 20 only; all to be in excellent condition, low time Ivey engine and ready to race.

Those are three great cars. You don't see the earlier Crossles too much - great looking cars. The later models are popular CF cars. Titans are by far the fastest Vintage Fords in VARA/HSR-West, but they also happen to be driven by the best drivers. The Winklemans are supposed to be very good on faster tracks, and have the most spacious cockpit of any vintage FF. Merlyns and Royales are supposed to be fast cars too and have the benefit of being unique, if you care about such things.

Just make sure the car has an Uprated, not a Cortina, engine, and if possible one rebuilt by Jay Ivey (you not only get a great motor, but it will also have a built-in resale advantage). And, like any classic car purchase, like everybody says, buy the car in the best condition you can afford. A totally restored car will be the most expensive, but by far the best value. These days you could buy any one of the three cars you mention in top restored condition for $15-$20.

Good luck!

[Jonathan Hirst]

I have a Crossle 16F (mechanically the same as a 20F but prettier IMHO) for sale that was restored to a very high spec when the original buyer backed out. The motor is one of Jays but it required a rebuild and it went to Britain West, a very reputable East Coast builder /supplier. It has had one weekend on it to shake it down after the restoration (2004) and was parked. It now sits in a dark heated space.....waiting.



More information here:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...ht=crossle+16F

More pictures here :
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...Crossle%2016F/









Jonathan.

[jgaither]

That is a fine restoration on a desireable car and offered at a very fair price. Amazed it hasn't sold. Another great candidate for the vintage group at the 40th. Dang, Jon. Why aren't you driving this thing? I wouldn't be able to stand it.

jg

[EffOne]

I was actually going to mention this car to the guy, but assumed it must have sold by now. I lusted after this car for quite awhile before doing something different. Now this is a labor-of-love resto. Like a brand new car. I regretted not buying it; now I can regret it all over again. Crossle parts are available, too. Absolutely the best buy of the vintage cars currently for sale. And it also has such a great vintage look to it, as well –*no one will have another one on the grid, that's for sure. Also has better chance than most to appreciate in value a little.

[Jonathan Hirst]

That is a fine restoration on a desirable car and offered at a very fair price. Amazed it hasn't sold. Another great candidate for the vintage group at the 40th. Dang, Jon. Why aren't you driving this thing? I wouldn't be able to stand it.

jg

To make a long story short John, the beautiful girl was trumped by a old flame with sentimental value.


Jonathan

[Darrell LeBlanc]

When looking at vintage fords (or any formula car for that matter) chassis condition is most important because it is the most expensive part to get right. Most of these old cars ran water through the frame tubes. Corrosion can be a problem. However, many chassis have been repaired and/or converted to run the water outside the frame tubes.

Andy, I'm considering converting my 69 Winkelmann WDB2 to run the water through outside tubes. Do you know of anyone who has done this to a Winkelmann? I'd like to talk to them before diving in. The plumbing on the front of the frame is tight and I'm not sure how to run the tubes from the radiator thru the bodywork.

Darrell

[provamo]

never liked the hanging pedals on this model

loved the bulova decal however

just noticed you got rid of the knee tanks which might have been good for side intrusion protection

[Andy Antipas]

Hi, Many people are running the water outside the frame. Email me off list at aantipas@sopris.net, and we can talk about it.

[Albatross]

For those of you who were so kind to answer my inqirery about the price/value of a good quality Titan Mk 6, Crossle 20F or Lola T-200 with an Ivy engine, I sincerely appreciated and valued all the answers. I had my eye on a Crossle 20F which is in excellent condition with a low time Ivy engine located some 8-9 hours away. It is now in my garage. I have had it out for one weekend so far. It has lived up to my expectations - it's fast and the driver is coming up to speed also. I need to mind my manners around the vintage types, they don't like to be crowded and I support that philosophy. I'm 69 years old and decided to get back into racing.. It was/is a great dicision. I received my initial regional license in 1964 at Lime Rock, Thompson and the Bridge signed off by Charlie Rainville. Unfortunately the Road America FF weekend is one year to early for my level and my wallet has a big dent in it. Thanks and good luck to all. I flew the Grumman Albatross in the USCG many years ago while in the service. Which should explain the handle.

[profhendo]

G'day, does anyone have, or know of any spares for sale for the Royale RP 31M? In fact, if someone has a complete roller for sale, I would be interested. Many thanks for looking. Kind regards, Michael medsci@iinet.net.au