HNR mandate coming?

[Charles Warner]

I'd like a video of some poor corner worker trying to pull all 6'2" and 200# of my unconscious ass out of the car w/o removing the wheel.

Add to that video a 35 second clip of them running around ala the Keystone Kops trying to figure out how to undo your H&N device while the car in on fire.

[cooleyjb]

Joe,

My understanding is that any of these devices that are approved for use are designed so as to separate with a simple pull. The removable steering wheel is not a required item and the driver is expected to be able to either get out, or be removed, with the wheel in place.

They 'should' operate with a simple pull but it's still another point of release which can get in the way of egress. There have been times when getting out of a car I have had my head yanked back by the radio connection. Nothing I couldn't pull through but if I had a neck problem it wouldn't have been good. I'm not saying that it's the exact same ball of wax but it's still multiple points of release even if some are hard points and some are soft points.

As for the steering wheel part and expectation that a driver can get out with or without it removed. I'd bet that half the guys running Spec Miata can't get out their window wiht a steering wheel in place. I know a large number of guys running open wheel that need to get the steering wheel off in order to get out of the car.


AFAIK There is no expectation of egress speed or ability in the GCR. Someone actually submitted that egress time be added to the GCR and in the last Fastrack was told that it might violate the Americans with Disability Act.

[cooleyjb]

Add to that video a 35 second clip of them running around ala the Keystone Kops trying to figure out how to undo your H&N device while the car in on fire.

Just playing devils advocate still.


If they are spending 35 seconds to get someone out of teh car instead of the 3 seconds it takes to cut teh belts then we need to talk about worker standards and instruction first, not necessarily a HNR standard.

[Charles Warner]

posted in error

[cooleyjb]

Posted so people could see exactly what it looks like. The green wires are a quick rlease pull.

Cutting the belts near where the device is on the belt allows it to get free from teh belts as well.

[Charles Warner]

It can be, not the device but the belt.

So, if I get this properly, the harness latch is undone, releasing the belts, and the corner workers still have to cut through each shoulder harness. And, they are supposed to know this instinctively with the car upside down? Maybe we should require anyone using said device to wear a purple helmet to indicate the extra two steps that need to be done to extract the driver.

[cooleyjb]

So, if I get this properly, the harness latch is undone, releasing the belts, and the corner workers still have to cut through each shoulder harness. And, they are supposed to know this instinctively with the car upside down? Maybe we should require anyone using said device to wear a purple helmet to indicate the extra two steps that need to be done to extract the driver.

\

They would hopefully know that if they are having trouble getting a driver out they should start cuttting anything and everything that should be in the way.

[Wren]

Just put "broke neck while racing" on the long list of things that can kill me due to the lifestyle I live.

That's how I feel as well. Racing would be either second or third on my list of dangerous activities. I had the posts on my helmet, the car was setup for it, the HANS was available and I still chose not to wear it. If it makes insurance cheaper for everyone then I might be in favor of it, if it is just SCCA being my nanny, I can do just fine without it.

[Daryl DeArman]

I would suggest any system that was not designed with the single release point in mind was not particularly well thought out.

You are right Charles, they have no idea what they are doing.

[Daryl DeArman]

We complain about HANS and SFI in bed when in fact some of teh most vocal against that relationship are in a similar relationship with RSI

I love the concept of RSI. Unfortunately, who would be sufficiently motivated to start such an organization other than somebody that has issues with the SFI/Manufacturer relationships?

RSI and SFI have two very different roles.

http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/AboutRSI.html

[tsiembieda]

When I used to work corners in Midiv we discussed the different types of HNR devices at our CFR schools. We had a driver bring in his Isaac along with a Hans so everyone could see the differences.

I'm doing my first driver school this spring in a Formula Vee and before going to school I will be using a HNR device. I'm looking at both the Hans and DefNder and will be talking to both at PRI before making a decision. After looking at both sites I'm leaning towards the DefNder because of the adjustability and side impact protection.

As far as getting a driver out of a car as fast as possible when needed, if we could not get to the release on the belts, our training was to cut everything that was keeping a driver in the car, belts, radio connections, chassis whatever it took. Thankfully in all the major incidents I responded to over the years I never had to cut a drivers belts to get them out of a car. I have responded to a some pretty bad incidents that may have had different results had the driver been wearing a HNR device.

[rickb99]

Primary (turn workers) Driver Extraction Tool of choice. Never go to T-5 without it.

[Tom Sprecher]

That's how I feel as well. Racing would be either second or third on my list of dangerous activities.

1. Riding my Harley in Atlanta traffic
2. Riding my Harley in Daytona or Sturgis w/o a helmet
3. Arguing with my wife
4. Sitting on the roof edge of the 14 story Congress Hotel, drinking beer, my feet hanging over the edge w/nothing but asphalt below 'til the wee hours one night
5. Racing SCCA
6. Uhh, we won't go there
7. Body surfing during a small craft advisory
8. Racing Moto-X
9. Drinking and smoking
10. Something not as stupid as any of the above

[Amon]

Tsiembieda:

Please expand on your statement: "I have responded to some pretty bad incidents that
may have had different results had the driver been wearing an HNR devise". What type
of accident have you witnessed that it was better not to wear the HNR?


Thanks!

Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe he meant "not wearing", or maybe someone had belts come off of their HANS? Follow their harness mounting instructions!!! (sorry, off my soapbox now).

The only time I could think I would prefer to not be wearing any type of HNR is in the case of a fire. I don't want any extra steps or anything that might get snagged on my way out. That is assuming, I survived whatever impact preceded the fire without the HNR.

[Steve Demeter]

Have had 2 occasions to test the Hans and it works.

there is a reason why Cart/IRL and F1 require a Hans and onmly a Hans is acceptable. They work and work damn well.

If you are worried about getting out quickly in case of a fire, you are probably already dead from the crash.

Think about it. How much of a shot would it take to puncture your fuel cell and what shape would you be in after that sort of impact, particularly since most of them are right behind our backs.

and Rick Kirchner, do not even think of buying anything you would trust your life to from China. Had many bad experiences with their piss poor quality as a sister company to a chinese manufacturer.

[tsiembieda]

I would rather not go into detail because some of those memories are still tough to talk about.

What I can tell you is that in one weekend the crew I was working with responded to two drivers. Both were unconscious when we got to them and one was on fire. Then at Gateway I responded to another driver that suffered a C2 fracture after flipping a Sprite end over end at turn 1. These incidents happened during both pro and club races and none of the drivers were wearing HNR devices.

Knowing what I know from these incidents it just makes me think what would the outcome have been if they had been wearing HNR devices. Would the driver at Gateway fractured his neck? Would the two drivers been unconscious after the impacts they took?

[Daryl DeArman]

there is a reason why Cart/IRL and F1 require a Hans and onmly a Hans is acceptable. They work and work damn well.

If you are worried about getting out quickly in case of a fire, you are probably already dead from the crash.

Think about it. How much of a shot would it take to puncture your fuel cell and what shape would you be in after that sort of impact, particularly since most of them are right behind our backs.

and Rick Kirchner, do not even think of buying anything you would trust your life to from China. Had many bad experiences with their piss poor quality as a sister company to a chinese manufacturer.

Where to start.....

Yes there is a reason that F1 and IRL require a HANS and only a HANS.....it is probably something other than what you are thinking though. Are you aware of the resultant Fz numbers from the "SFI test protocol" --68G 30 degree impact on the Delphi sled?

Yeah, nobody ever catches fire in a survivable crash...????? There is a reason that they came out with the quick release tethers.

You seem pretty confident that your tethers, harness webbing, helmet chin strap, fire suit zipper and harness hardware is all made somewhere other than China.....are you sure?

[Charles Warner]

Where to start.....

Yes there is a reason that F1 and IRL require a HANS and only a HANS.....it is probably something other than what you are thinking though.

Black helicopters circling . . . . .

You seem pretty confident that your tethers, harness webbing, helmet chin strap, fire suit zipper and harness hardware is all made somewhere other than China.....are you sure?

Yes, Daryl, I am quite sure. I've been to the factory where they are made, including the HANS device, and it was a long way from China, Toto.

Italian suppositories abound again.

[Daryl DeArman]

Charles,

The reason you don't see the same black helicopters I do, is for all the sand in your eyes.

--conflicted--

I always want the best safety equipment available and I'd like to keep my money in the US whenever possible. What factory did you visit where they made their own webbing for the harnesses, helmet chin straps and zippers for their suit? They also made their own hardware for everything as well? I emphasize made, because I believe you'll find most, if not all, safety equipment manufacturers source these items and merely assemble or cut to length and sew ends.

As far as the "italian suppositories" go, I wasn't even addressing those original questions to you. Steve put Rick on blast suggesting that he was crazy for even considering wearing safety equipment that had Chinese made components. Steve might have the best intentions, but it is quite possible that his own safety equipment that he trusts so much, already has Chinese made components--just saying.

[Rick Kirchner]

There's plenty of great stuff made in China. Plenty of crap too. I'm sure that in every conceivable industry there are parts that your life depends on made in China.

It's not the location of manufacture, it's the people that don't test and inspect the stuff they buy. I've never been a big fan of in process inspection and certifications as the final say on quality control, but a lot of people buy in to that crap.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Two points. All of my customers wear HANS, and all of their cars have been modified to mount the harness correctly. I always tell a new customer's wife (if he has one) that a great present is a HANS. Some of them have been in nasty crashes and were not injured in any way. Did the HANS prevent injury? I don't know for sure, but it sure as hell didn't cause any. They all praised the device, and were sure it helped.
Second point..remember that the safest racing is no racing at all! If we keep mandating safety rules, sooner or later most are not going to be able to afford to race.

[Charles Warner]

Daryl,

I understand your points about not knowing the exact source of all the integral parts of any equipment. Your allusion was to the possibility/probability(?) that they were indeed of lesser quality than we would wish. Where was I? In Dijon. A friend of mine owns Stand 21. They do as much as possible in houes, including making the HANS devices under license from H-D.

I also understand your position that you feel a conspiracy was formed with the express intent of black-listing Greg's device. I would posit that he decided to not join the group (possibly because he felt the multiple release system was better.) That was (or should have been) a deliberate decision based on the reality of the situation. Your presumption that H-D somehow manipulated the system to exclude other devices remains to be proven, if it can be proven. At the end of the day it may be a case of a company working the marketplace better than others. It could simply be the free market system at work.

I have no doubt that you feel that device is as good (possibly better) than the SFI 38.1 approved devices. If this is true then I would hope you guys could come up with a way to gain the necessary approval. The more effective devices we have to choose from the better. However, to imply less than appropriate actions on the part of the competition is just not on.

[budawe]

I don't think manipulating a regulatory process or consipiring to exclude a competitor is either effective marketing, or the free market system at work. These are just examples of ethics challenged morons that have choosen to game the system. All one has to do is look at the results of recent deregulations to grasp the reality that corporate morality is in serious peril. But this posting, like many before it, have little to do with safety.

[glenn cooper]

Whew, this thing is like 5 pages long. I read quite a bit, but not all...

At the ARRC in '07, I was watching a buddy race in the enduro. They had a killa dice going, 5 car freight train. I'm standing there with his Mom and family and friends, when right in front of us, he gets tapped and crossed up, and F'n pile drives into the wall/angled/head on. The car was shortened about to the windshield. It didn't look good at all. I asked one of his buds if he was wearing a HANS. When he said no, it cost too much or some such non-sense, my heart was in my mouth. How he survived, virtually unscathed probably had more to do with the angled/glancing nature of the hit, but right at that moment, I had an eppiphany of sorts...

I had actually done something similar in the past w/ another bud in an EP car.
All he did was get the helmet mounts installed, and we shared the thing. Unlike a helmet that can get all funky and sweaty (don't ask - I had to do it one time at a m/c race- Ewwwwwwww!) , letting a bud or fellow racer borrow your device to me is a no-brainer!

We could probably get something like this going on the region level:
I'll be at Sebring, and am in group 3, model 20, medium. Another guy replies he's in group 5, and takes the same size.
Maybe you could paddock next to or near each other. Maybe the guy that needs the loan could help with wrenching or lunches.

We really need to be thinking non-traditionally here. I can swing the purchase no sweat, but the guy next door with more financial responsibility than me may not be able too.
That 1k$ may represent a huge chunk if he's allready on the edge what with tires, fuel, repairs, tow vehicle, 2 ex wives/alimony, crack habit, etc...

Just a crazy idea, I know, but maybe something will come of it...

GC

[glenn cooper]

That thing looks pretty tight. I like the ability to adjust angle as well as the belt guides or whatever TLA they are going by.

I also think there's gonna be a showdown in court if it comes to market: maybe looks a little too much like a HANS!

D'Oh!

GC

[Rick Kirchner]

Could be a lawsuit, but as I understand it the key element in the HANS is the tethers coming directly from behind. It looks to me like everything that's not a HANS has them coming up from below, which is why they typically don't test as well.

Just how close to horizontal the angle has to be would be an interesting read.

[Daryl DeArman]

If this is true then I would hope you guys could come up with a way to gain the necessary approval.

Just to be clear, I don't work for ISAAC, have never worked for ISAAC, I have been a strong supporter of the device. Only clarifying because of your "you guys" comment. Not sure if you are referring to "pro-ISAAC" people or thought I was somehow connected to/with ISAAC LLC. Just don't want anybody thinking I am an ISAAC employee on here pitching the device.

The more effective devices we have to choose from the better.

Absolutely agree 100%, which is why I have such issue with the SFI design standards.

[Daryl DeArman]

Could be a lawsuit, but as I understand it the key element in the HANS is the tethers coming directly from behind. It looks to me like everything that's not a HANS has them coming up from below, which is why they typically don't test as well.

Just how close to horizontal the angle has to be would be an interesting read.

Interesting. I know that US Patents are good from 14 to 20 years dependant upon the type of patent. HANS has been around longer than 20 years, wonder when their patent was granted? Patents are not renewable.

In any event I believe that due to the SFI 38.1 standards more and more devices will be very HANS like with a few tweaks/improvements. IMHO the HANS device today is a big improvement over the HANS of just a few years ago.

Ideally, I'd love to see a device that doesn't rely on the harnesses, that somehow stays IN the car without requiring any additional release (satisfy SFI 38.1) with Fz load reduction better than the current "best" SFI 38.1 approved (The Hybrid X) at a price of $1500 or less. Currently the Hybrid X is around $1200.

[stonebridge20]

Well to give you guys some more reading pleasure, here is a link to the Prodracing site where I posted the mandatory HANS (OK, I should have posted head and neck restraint) in SCCA question. The first 6 or 7 pages are the usual pi$$ing but it gets interesting on pages 8 and 9. Some interesting insurance facts and statements. Interesting what poster "imafool" wrote on page 8.

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewto...8d2844cb8c3a33


Mike Agnifilo


.

[glenn cooper]

I was wondering how many folks out there w/o any type of HNR are sporting high dollar helmets or possibly even high(er) $ paint jobs on their lids.
I'm trying to get my head around the concept of protecting yer noggin and face, but NOT your spine/noggin interface.

Back when I was a kneedraggin' youngster, as soon as the first generation Dainese back protector w/ hard overlapping plates was available, I bought one. The level of back/spine protection in the ensuing years, as well as body armour in general has been incredibly impressive.

GC

[Rick Ross]

I do have a high-dollar Bell helmet.....but no fancy paint or graphics. Just the flat black color as delivered.

Don't assume that the lack of an HNR on a driver indicates a lack of desire to utilize one, or a lack of concern for the cervical spine. I have a brand new HANS device sitting on the shelf here that I would absolutely love to wear. The problem is that I just can not wear the HANS in my current car......it simply does not fit. I am over 6 feet tall, and I can just barely squeeze into the car without a HANS. Once in the car there is no room for the HANS either above my shoulders or behind my neck. Even if I could somehow find room for the device, the shoulder belt geometry would be all wrong.

I suspect that the ISAAC device might work well in my car, but I have not tried it.....yet. I would like to see it "approved" so that it might be an option for someone in my situation. If SCCA ends up requiring a HANS-type HNR I am not sure what I will do.

[glenn cooper]

Yeah, I barely was able to pour my 5' 10" into one of those a few years ago, and while I'm lacking that extra 2", err, check that, you are 2" TALLER than I am!, I guess that's what's making the difference.

I was however able to wear the HANS, and quite comfortably.

Is there NO WAY to modify the structure to allow this?

I will go on the record as saying that I feel the SCCA should NOT specify a certain brand, as folks like Rick may be the exception to the (proposed) rule.

I guess the next thing to do is actually send in a letter stating that.

OK Rick, you convinced me - it's not about cost, or wanting to do the smart thing (Sorry, I'm still a smart ass!), it's possibly something that I've not experienced myself.

Geez - what a concept!

GC

[Rick Ross]

Hi Glenn,

As far as I know there is no practical way to modify the tub structure in this case, although that might be a viable option if this was a tube frame car. Another problem is that the forward roll hoop supports pass just barely above my shoulders, leaving insufficient room for the HANS. Removal and/or modifications of these roll hoop supports would obviously not be wise, and would probably not be allowed by the GCR anyway.

Of course, I guess the smart thing for me to have done would have been to check this all out before deciding to buy a DB4! I did sit in one first to make sure that I would "fit", but I obviously forgot to take the HANS with me. Fortunately, most DB4 drivers can wear a HANS with no problem.

[cooleyjb]

I suspect that the ISAAC device might work well in my car, but I have not tried it.....yet. I would like to see it "approved" so that it might be an option for someone in my situation. If SCCA ends up requiring a HANS-type HNR I am not sure what I will do.

I may be reading this wrong but just in case.

t\The Isaac is currently allowed for SCCA there is nothing preventing you from getting one right now. At least in the past they have had rentals.

[Rick Ross]

Joe,

I think you are correct, and I should probably take a closer look at the ISAAC. In my post I was just alluding to my concern that future SCCA rules may not allow the use of the ISAAC in club racing, and if that was the case it would only serve as a short-term solution to my problem.

It is possible that the roll hoop supports on my car would interfere with the ISAAC system, but I won't know until I try. Regardless of what one thinks about the "dual release" system on the ISAAC, it does in fact provide good impact protection, and it is certainly superior to the absence of any HNR system.

[cooleyjb]

Joe,

I think you are correct, and I should probably take a closer look at the ISAAC. In my post I was just alluding to my concern that future SCCA rules may not allow the use of the ISAAC in club racing, and if that was the case it would only serve as a short-term solution to my problem.

It is possible that the roll hoop supports on my car would interfere with the ISAAC system, but I won't know until I try. Regardless of what one thinks about the "dual release" system on the ISAAC, it does in fact provide good impact protection, and it is certainly superior to the absence of any HNR system.

The single point of release if for belts only in the SCCA GCR. SFI 38.1 goes to say that no additional points of release are allowed for the HNR.

I'm pretty sure there are a few IT guys I can think of in the greater Charlotte area that have Isaac devices that would let you check them out for a test fit.

[stonebridge20]

Rumor from the CRB-Drivers meeting at PRI Sunday morning is that due to an overwhelming response, HNR will NOT be mandated by SCCA.


.

[MAC Racing]

Rick, I could not fit in my car with a HANS, the firewall was too close to allow the back of the HANS to fit without pushing on my neck. There just isnt enough room. I now have the Hybrid Pro and it fits fine. When I ordered it I asked if it didnt fit could I just return it and they had no problem with that.

Just in case you were looking for an option.

Mat

Hi Glenn,

As far as I know there is no practical way to modify the tub structure in this case, although that might be a viable option if this was a tube frame car. Another problem is that the forward roll hoop supports pass just barely above my shoulders, leaving insufficient room for the HANS. Removal and/or modifications of these roll hoop supports would obviously not be wise, and would probably not be allowed by the GCR anyway.

Of course, I guess the smart thing for me to have done would have been to check this all out before deciding to buy a DB4! I did sit in one first to make sure that I would "fit", but I obviously forgot to take the HANS with me. Fortunately, most DB4 drivers can wear a HANS with no problem.

[JHandley]

I have a Hutchins Device that fits pretty comfortably.
It's all straps and I think it was one of the first HNR's developed but it is better than nothing at all.