Oil Cooler thoughts

[glenn cooper]

OK, I've 2 thoughts here
On my Novak converted Van Dieman, there is not much in the way of sidepod area to mount an oil cooler. The Pinto engine only required a small-ish cooler, mounted left pod, behind the rad. each sidepod has a long radiator in it.
I'm wondering if anyone has some experience with a heat exchanger (liquid to liquid), as opposed to an oil cooler (oil to air).
There appears to be enough room (12"Lx8"Wx6"D) alongside the chain run to mount a heat exchanger.
My second thought was to mount a standard oil cooler (OTA) in the same area, horizontal to the floor, with air ducted to the cooler through some NACA ducts in the floor.
I know that there are cars out there with all sorts of configurations of coolers, but the limited space I have to work with, without mounting the cooler out in the breeze and building a shroud around it (with the resultant drag), has me head scratching to ensure proper oil cooling.
Thanks, GC

[RobLav]

I'm keeping my oil / water heat exchanger on the Yamaha. Not sure you'll need an oil cooler though.

[carnut169]

I'm thinking this is a bad idea Coop. Might be good as a supplement but I would not rely on it for all oil cooling. I would also not mount an air cooler anywhere near the chain- if it broke, you'd have a mess/ possible fire.

I've got about the same sidepod area and run an oil cooler in front of the radiator (behind it was not effective enough). I may even run two coolers in parallel like the radiators... Anyway, the cooler I use is aprox 15" long and 6" tall. The outlet/ inlets are on the top and I use 90' AN adapters to go back to the engine. I'm also installing an inline adapter for the oil temp gauge to see what the after cooler temps are as opposed to in engine temps. The area next to the radiator must be filled (I use foam) to force all the air through both coolers.
You are more than welcome to drop by and check it out, should be installed in the next week or so.

[RussMcB]

My set up is very much like Sean's, and like Rob's (I kept the stock bike's oil filter housing with coolant passages).

Might be best if you just ran events northern tracks until you feel comfortable with your set up.

[glenn cooper]

Thanks guys,
Sean I was gonna run a wall between the heat exchanger and the chain.
I like this concept for the compactness of the packaging, and not hogging the pod space for the rads. The way I figure it, the GSXR bike came with a pretty big rad, and a not so huge oil cooler. Due to the fact that we are flogging these engines pretty hard, compared to the bike guys, it's gonna need mo' coolin'. The 2007 GSXR1000 has no oil filter mounted heat exchanger like some other bikes have, just the little OTA cooler.
I do like the idea of the oil cooler in front of the water rads though...
GC

[carnut169]

You can always try it and add more cooling if needed... might work.

I started with 1 radiator and one oil cooler, not enough, ran hot. Then went to two radiators with the oil cooler behind- same result. The way I've got it now seems to be working for me although it can see some hot temps esp after I come in and don't have the airflow.

I know the Stohrs had some cooling issues as well until they revamped the airflow behind the coolers- it was too restrictive.

I also thought about using a cooler like you describe (Aeromotive makes a neat one) as a tube to go from the air cooler back to the engine, running just behind the fire wall....

[RussMcB]

A thought:

If you decide to go the route of using an oil-to-water-coolant exchanger, then your water radiator(s) may need to be a bigger than if you had an OTA cooler, simply because the water coolant will have more heat to deal with.

Perhaps it boils down to packaging - what fits and will do the job.

As you all already know, thinking about efficient airflow is a very important consideration. Sometimes I find it useful to talk to people who have done actual air flow testing. When I was thinking about adding naca ducts and bodywork Gurney lips, Mike Devins helped me think about pros and cons of different options.

[Messenger Racing]

so what oil temps are you guys shooting for....

measured after the coolers (coolest point)?

or

measured in the motor (hottest point)?

FWIW, in my maiden voyage with the MX-1 I had the following setup - stock FC 2 radiator setup, 7" tall standard FC style oil cooler mounted behind one radiator with no special ducting.

And, this part may be different than most, I measure my oil temp at the absolute hottest point I can, which on the 07 GSXr is the pressurized oil galley plug on each end of the motor (I get the oil PSI on the other end). I was seeing 280-285 degrees on a 75 degree day. Obviously it would be much lower entering the motor after the cooler.

Comments?

JM

[RussMcB]

Great question, Jay. Perfect timing for me. I'm planning to add an oil temp sender to my system very soon. I was planning to put it in the oil tank.

I heard someone recently espouse their belief that FB engine failures may be related to high oil temps.

Maybe Sean has gotten (or can get) that info from George.

[Sean Maisey]

Well having just blown up motor number 2 in my fourth outing, I am not gonna call myself any kind of authority.

I am running the 'stock' oil cooler location The one that came in the original Pinto configuration.

I have tried a couple of flow configurations.

1. Running the oil cooler off of the bike oil cooler inlet and outlet ports. (Using the PeterD Motorsports fittings)
2. Looping these two fittings together and running to the oil cooler from the scavange pump (right before it goes bank into the tank).

I have also tried taking temps at a couple of points.
1. At the bottom of the sump tank.
2. At the oil cooler inlet when it uses the stock oil cooler pickup points.
3. At the oil cooler inlet after the scavange pump and before returning to the tank.

My conclusions so far (with a lot of help from George Dean).

1. The stock GSXR oil cooler circuits only flow about 1/3 of the oil volume that goes throught the pump, so this is probably not an optimum solution.
2. Looping the two ports on the side of the motor together and flowing the oil out of the scavange pump througth the cooler on the way back to the tank is better, BUT
3. BEST is to eliminate the stock outlets (the 'loop' creates a big oil heat sink line crossing under the exhaust and is added weight and complexity).

Temps.
1. Oil temperatures in the looped arrangenment at VIR (75F and sunny) were in the 270-280 range measured after the scavenage pump and before the cooler.
2. According to George, oil temps are best taken at the oil tank bottom as this shows what the temp is as it enters the internal pump and flows to the bearings.

Hope this helps some.
Sean M.

[Mike B]

Sean,
Did you or George do an autopsy on either blowed up engines? Wondering if there was some discoloration that might point to oil starvation or high temps or if there was something else altogether.

[RussMcB]

Sean,
Did you or George do an autopsy on either blowed up engines? Wondering if there was some discoloration that might point to oil starvation or high temps or if there was something else altogether.

I was wondering that, too.

Also, did George suggest a max oil temp going into the main pump?

PS. Thanks for the informative post, Sean M.

[Sean Maisey]

The recently blown up motor left for George's shop this week. George asked me to send it along with the new 'core' so that he could try to figure out what went wrong. The AIM data really didn't show us anything too telling. I didn't screw up and down shift instead of upshift or spin and force it to run backwards. I just went out and ran 5 fairly easy laps of qualifying at VIR and BOOM!

If there is anything to share I will let you guys know.

I wrote off the first motor as a bad junkyard gamble. It never got very hot or showed any signs of particular stress. It just grenaded after 8-10 laps at speed. I didn't have it checked out before I put it in the car, so I can not tell if it was an abused child to begin with.

George and I discussed oil temps at VIR and he advised that I should measure from the supply side (bottom of the sump tank). I gathered that he felt that 250-260 was about the maximum that he felt was acceptable. He seemed to think that the 270-280 that I was seeing in the hottest part of the system (oil cooler inlet after scavenge pump) was fine. I will confirm this with him when we next talk.

FWIW, with the twin stock 1998-2007 style side pods and radiators, I see water temps that cycle up and down between 170-180 as the thermostat opens and closes. It is very consistant. So there seems to be no lack of water cooling capacity.

More soon,
Sean

[Duane Dyckman]

Sean,
How will you plumb the oil system eliminating the stock outlets? I'm close to the point where I will be mocking up the plumbing on my car.
Thanks

[carnut169]

You can force all of the oil to go through the cooler. Not sure if it is "legal", but since it's oiling related I feel it is open.

Remove the left cooler fitting, look in the hole and you will see a small hole inside the case it is just the right size for a 10-32 tap. There is also a gallery plug on the left side of the front of the case, I remove this plug and insert some paper towel to keep the tap stuff from getting into the engine. Remove the right side cooler fitting so you can use air to blow the stuff out the left side. I coat the tap with heavy wheel bearing grease to catch the stuff off the tap.
Clean the newly tapped hole with brake clean and blow out from right to left. Then locktite a 10-32 allen head screw in place.
Now all the oil will go thru the cooler fittings.

[glenn cooper]

Double post, bad Coop!

[glenn cooper]

Thanks guys, here’s where I’m at as of 3am:
The left ‘pod is now sportin’ a stock Mazda RX7 Turbo II oil cooler (Had it layin' around after the Verbot Turbot got a Mazdacomp, nee speed unit a few years back). It’s as long as the VD rad, 2.5" thick, and about 2/3 the height.
The right pod has the stock VD rad, and the VD Pinto water tubes have come in quite handy, one is used as-is, and another got cut in half.
My plan is to get everything plumbed and wired and fired (up) to see where I’m at.
I want to end up with oil and water temps no higher than 225-250F, on a July day in Savannah (ugh!).
I can’t help but think the recent rash of FB and to some extent DSR engine failures with the ‘07 GSXR1000 have something to do with oil temp’s. Con rods that are blued (and snapped) at their bottoms and no valve train damage (over-rev) point to this condition.
The DSR’s I drove in 2005 (‘04 and ‘05 GSXR) and 2006 (‘04 and ‘05 R1) had no oil temp issues. Both were wet sumped with the same pan I am using now, for the time being.
Of course these cars had much larger sidepods and coolers than my slim-line VD has.
I think these cars can definitely benefit from a lot more airflow to the engine cases as well.
I can’t imagine not taking fluid temps at their hottest location, which to my untrained mind would be at the point they are leaving the engine with their freshly acquired heat load.
GC

[RussMcB]

Funny. I looked at an RX-7 cooler as an option for my car back when I was looking.

I can’t imagine not taking fluid temps at their hottest location, which to my untrained mind would be at the point they are leaving the engine with their freshly acquired heat load.

OK, I *think* I've got a good response to this.

If you want to know how well you are cooling the oil, you want to measure the temp after the cooling has happened (in the tank).

However, if you want to know how much your engine is heating the oil, then you'd want the temp sender as it's exiting the engine.

Ideally, if you had both, the delta would be pretty useful info, too.

I guess it just matters which you are more worried about - the cooling ability of your system, or the clearances/friction in the engine.

The above is not well thought out, but I was impressed that I thought of it at all! :-).

[carnut169]

LOL I also looked an an RX7 cooler!
I decided to remove the stock oil pressure sensor (not using it anyway) and utilize the 1/8 npt for an Autometer oil temp sending unit. I'll be looking at in-engine oil temps. The other gauge will be oil pressure and I'll use an inline adapter for that.

The bike's dash does display water temps but I'll have to look carefully as it will be 1/3 water temp and 2/3 fault codes each displayed for a few seconds, rotating between the three.

[Jnovak]

I checked with some of my NASCAR friends & they said that the maximum oil temps they work with are in the 250 to 260 deg F. This is the hotest temps & not after the cooler. This seems to clearly indicate that the temps the GSXR engines are seeing are much too high. This may be the root cause of the many recent failures.

I very much suspect that the Van Diemen conversions (as well as most cars) need a very large FULL FLOW oil cooler to get the temps in the low 200 deg F range after the cooler.

I also think that with the relatively low water temps these cars are seeing a water to oil heat exchanger will work very well.

We are working on a full flow adaptor system right now & hope to get it on a car very soon.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[carnut169]

I will be running two of these in parallel, taking temps inside the case. Got to be enough...

[RussMcB]

I wonder if a dry sump system helps cooling a small amount compared to a wet sump. The oil volume is probably a little more, right? Not sure if that affects temperature ...

[RobLav]

Well - here is where I am going. We'll see what happens:

- Dry Sump Yamaha
- Tank is located in rear drive box and holds about 4 quarts
- 1 large brass radiator (old FSV) and 1 large aluminum Griffith
- Stock Yamaha oil / water heat exchanger
- HP bleed air along the body sides into engine compartment
- engine compartment heat exhaust locations on both sides of rear drive box
- The exhaust I made exits on the left, and there is plenty of room between it and the fuel cell. The HP bleed air along the left body side is going to go right into the exhaust.

So I'm going to try it without an oil / air heat exchanger.

All these threads have been very informative. Thanks.

[cparsons]

very timely and informative discussion. Cooling systems are scheduled for next week! Thank you gentlemen.

[John]

The Arkens tried the oil to water cooler trick on their DSRs and by the end of the weekend they had oil coolers strapped to the top of the car to keep the oil cool. I do not think I have seen one working on a DSR yet.

The problem is that these are really oil cooled motors, George will tell you that you really want to be under 225 for the oil. It is worse than for a normal car because the transmission is also in the oil bath. our oil cooler is as big as our radiator to get this balance. I would plan to have Oil in one Side pod and water in the other. I am not sure how you would get the temps down otherwise. These engines do not tend to run hot water wise. Unless you mess up the air flow into the radiator (been there done that)

We run a dry sump in our car the oil leaves the engine and goes into a filter (that way you can save the oil cooler if you loose the engine) we then run through the cooler and into the tank. We have blocked the ports on our GSXR to the stock cooler, but you must open the internal galleries to do so. When I am forced to use a stock motor we run a by pass line from one of the oil cooler ports to the other. Otherwise you do not get enough oil flow. Since you need to keep your engines stock, you probably need to use this method.

Never ever reuse the oil cooler if you blow the engine otherwise you will also blow the next engine. Either use a filter before the cooler or throw the cooler in the trash after each engine blow up. Also don't try to clean the cooler, motors are expensive, and after an ultrasonic cleaning ( that wont work ) you only save about $100... and a motor costs a lot more than that.

We got 13 weekends from a full blown George motor with this set up, and afterwards george told me that the motor did not need anything, he just stuck in new rings and bearings because it was apart.

Cheers,

John Howarth (former FC guy, now DSR, thinking about F1000)

[JakeL]

My $0.02 to share, hopefully it will be helpful:

1.) I ran the stock R1 oil->water heat exchanger a few years ago on my 2003 R1. Didn't work. 260+ by the end of 6ish laps in a Radical (i.e. monstrous openings for coolers). This was with two enormous water radiators. I now run oil on one sidepod and water in the other, both are about 200* on any given day. Ran the same engine for 3+ years, came out looking great. It's in a Diasio now.

2.) the 1st gen Stohr DSR's I have seen use a pair of water radiators, and a long, tubular oil/water heat exchanger. I know Stohrs aren't known for their excessive cooling capacity, but it seems to work OK. I can grab a part number from one, if you like.

3.) On the GSX-R it can be convenient to measure oil temp directly in the galley that feeds the crank. There's an M16x1.50 (?) plug that can be replaced with an adapter that gives you 1/8NPT thread for installing a temp sensor. That way you know EXACTLY what the crank and rod bearings are seeing.

4.) As carnut mentioned, it's easy to arrange the GSX-R ports so all oil flows through the oil cooler ports.

Cheers!

-Jake

[Sean Maisey]

John,

How big is the cooler that you have been using?

Sean

[John]

I think it is the Setrab 13 X 10" 34 row cooler.. like I said LARGE. I will measure the spare cooler when I get home.

You could get away with a smaller cooler more like 13 x 5 or 7" cooler I think as long as you have good air flow.

Cheers,

John

[John]

The cooler is 10.5 by 12 put in the biggest cooler you can.

[Sean Maisey]

I have been running the size that came in the car in Pinto configuration. 13"x5 (2" deep).

Not sure how, but I think I need to fit a lot more cooler in that side pod...

Any suggestions welcome.

(Note this is a pic of the original config. Latest pumps oil out of the scavenge pump to the cooler).

[carnut169]

Yes.

1. Mod the motor's oil passage to allow 100% of the oil to pass through the cooler.
2. Run the largest coolers possible, I'm running two water and two oil (both to air)
3. Be sure the oil enters at the bottom and exits the top of the coolers.
4. Try to avoid 90' turns in the lines.
5. Run the best synthetic motorcycle oils
6. Be absolutely sure the air does not have an "escape route" other than through the coolers.
7. Run an oil temp gauge, and if it's getting to hot run around without pushing it so everything can cool- high speed & low rpm's= max cooling.

[formulasuper]

One thing I noticed while reading thru through all the previous post is no one mentioned the size of their oil lines/fittings. I have all -12AN fittings & hoses in my dry sump oil system, including the oil cooler, to provide the least resistance to oil flow. Size does matter.

[RussMcB]

After pondering this for a day, here are my thoughts about where best to monitor oil temps.

Yesterday, I thought it would be best to know the temperature of the oil after it has been cooled and before it goes into the engine. That way you'd know if the cooling system was bringing the temp down to a safe level before feeding it to the engine.

But, I've changed my mind.

Since the limit we are trying not to exceed is the maximum temp (because that's when the risk goes up), you need to measure the oil at the hottest temp to know if you are successfully staying below an unsafe temperature.

To hedge my bets, I've ordered two sensors for my AIM logger. I'll put one in the dry sump's oil tank (after the cooler and before entering the engine), and one in the oil pan (before the scavenge pump sends it to the cooler).

If it works out, I'll be able to see the delta, and that will help me know if the cooling system is coping with the needs.

Great discussion. Thanks, Apexspeeders.

(Maybe next we should discuss the pros and cons of where best to put the cooler(s) in the system ... :-)

Russ

PS. Sean M., I don't think we have permision to view this picture:

(Note this is a pic of the original config. Latest pumps oil out of the scavenge pump to the cooler).

[formulasuper]

"To hedge my bets, I've ordered two sensors for my AIM logger. I'll put one in the dry sump's oil tank (after the cooler and before entering the engine), and one in the oil pan (before the scavenge pump sends it to the cooler)."

I'm wondering if there will be enough oil in the pan to correctly heat the sensor. I thought the dry sump pump keeps it all sucked out.

[Mike Devins]

Mike Sirianni's DSR with a built motor runs one stock VD water rad and an 11 x 11 B&M oil cooler on the other side, no issue with cooling.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

[RussMcB]

I'm wondering if there will be enough oil in the pan to correctly heat the sensor. I thought the dry sump pump keeps it all sucked out.

Yea, I wondered about that, too, but I think where I'm going to put the sensor, it should be submerged, or at least have a constant flow of oil over it. When I've observed the oil returning to the tank, it's a pretty decent volume of flowing oil (i.e., not much air mixed in).

I thought about putting the sender in the oil line coming out of the scavenge pump on the way to the cooler, but then I'd have to make sure the flow wasn't restricted, and I'm not sure the temp would be any more accurate.

I'll keep thinking about it. I don't think the Kawasaki engine has a convenient location for measuring the oil at its hottest. Wouldn't that location need to be after the oil was squeezed through bearing clearances? That's why I figgered the dry sump pan would be the first opportunity to measure the oil temp soon after experiencing its hottest temperature.

[Messenger Racing]

On the MX-1 we are going to a modified fluidyne oil cooler. Curt Andrews modifies these aluminum coolers to make them a double bypass by cutting one of the side tanks and rewelding. They have 1/2" pipe openings at all four corners and a mounting flange on two sides so the cooler can be mounted in a variety of ways. Typically, I have used 4 rubber isolator blocks to a fabricated aluminum frame that also serves as part of my ducting. I will have a new one here in a day or two and post a picture with exact measurements. This is quite a bit more expensive of a solution than the B & M option but I believe is by far the best option for oil cooling.

Curt can be contacted at:

http://www.andrewsmotorsports.com/index.htm

FWIW,

Jay

[RussMcB]

Just a little tidbit to add to this oil cooling discussion.

I have two oil temp senders, one at the sump (before the cooler) and one in the dry sump tank (after cooler). My data from this weekend said my max temps before cooling were 274 degrees F and max temp after cooling was 240.

I'm guessing that means my oil cooling is sufficient, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts.

[glenn cooper]

Russ, I think those numbers are too high. Your setup is only dropping the oil temp 34 degrees. You are damn near 300 exiting the engine, and possibly will be (300) on 7/4/08 @ Roebling. What Brand/,Type oil are you using? I can send some off to the lab @ BG for an analysis, at least that will be a start. Hopefully my mondo-ish cooler from the Turbo ll RX7 will offer better heat shedding ability.
GC

[RussMcB]

What Brand/,Type oil are you using?

Motul 5100 4T Synthetic blend 10w-40.