Used pricing and crashes

[rbarna]

So a few of the FE's I'm looking at have been damaged in crashes in the past. They are all repaired, but to what extent it is hard to tell without seeing them in person. What sort of discounting should I expect for cars which have been crashed and rebuilt. Things like lost front and rear wheels and arms, and body damage which have been repaired appear common.

What sorts of verifications of worthyness should I look for? wheel weights? alignement settings?

Thanks!

-Ross

[D.T. Benner]

Never buy a used race car without seeing it in person! OR better yet if you are new to Formula Car racing get someone who has a lot of experience with the type/brand of car you are interested in to do it for/with you!
It's hard to see all that can be wrong with an Eyeball Inspection but short of driving the car you may find it hard to detect things like a slightly twisted frame. Even putting it on a set of scales will not be total proof.
Formula cars are intended to shed "External" parts so that the damage does not get transfered to the Frame/Tub and the driver. So don't be put off by logbook notes and seller admissions about parts being replaced. There are only 2 types of Formula Cars #1-those that have been in some type of accident and #2- those that Will be in some type of accident!
If the cars you are interested in have been raced after the repairs and are turning good lap time then they have probably been repaired properly
Pay cloose attention to Ex Pro or Rental cars as they often suffer more than cars that have had few drivers.

[formulasuper]

D.T. is correct, corner weights & alinement can be adjusted to make up for twisted or bent frames & therefore is not a good indicator of condition.

[rbarna]

Yes, definitely I will be inspecting personally. I just need to narrow the field a bit.

Any ideas on what sort of discounting should go along with a crash history?

I will use the lap time concept to detect proper setups... good idea.

THanks!

-Ross

[J Mabee]

I think the prices stated for used cars reflect the fact that they more than likely have had corners replaced - etc.. Thats why your getting a 15-20K decrease in price from a new race ready FE. The second a new car goes on track its used in everyones eyes. Its a great car and great class Ross, hope to see you on track soon!

[Purple Frog]

Knocking corners off formula cars is commonplace and in itself no reason for alarm. Quality teams can sometimes replace multiple corners in just the few minutes between qualifying and race with no detremental effect on performance. I witnessed it quite a few times this season.
Frame damage, though rare, is still something to look for.

Usually a lot can be learned by contacting those that competed against the car most recently. Not that hard to do these days with the wonders of the internet.

I always thought the best way to buy a used race car was demonstrated by Marshall Aiken one year (2004?). Go to the last pro race. As the series champion rolls in after the checker and stops in pit lane, grab the rollbar with one hand, write the check with the other. Don't let go until the car is in your trailer.

[D.T. Benner]

If you are looking at FE cars remember that these cars have undergone a lot of Ah..Err.. "Development" and upgrades in the last 3 years. The value of the car is very much a factor of how many of the upgrade changes have been installed and the Data/Dash system in any particular example of said car you are looking at.
If the car has been preped and finished to a high degree compared to an "as delivered" car that can also add to it's value.
Don't expect a discount for crash damage to an otherwise well preped car.
I used to deal with Insurance company total loss cars that have been branded as "Salvage Title" Most Formula cars would qualify for that description! But we still fix'em and Race them! I know a car in my Region that I raced in 1991-94 that has only about 30-40 percent of the parts on it that are left from when I raced it!

[enjoythetrack]

Knocking corners off formula cars is commonplace and in itself no reason for alarm. Quality teams can sometimes replace multiple corners in just the few minutes between qualifying and race with no detremental effect on performance.

Amen. Speaking for my decision, chose a car that was the #1 pro F2k race team (GTP's Brian Cleary's) as i trusted GTP/Glen and the car was a known good. Sure i eyeballed the car and did very minor checks. The community is quite small and people like Glen have earned their great reputation through years of hard work.

Track cars at this level are generally not like buying a used Ferrari where buyers look for cars that never sees rain, has no rock chips, gets polished every weekend.... Though if you insist on a car that is perfect, am sure there are shops who will gladly sell you a brand new car at the appropriate price. There are some very good F2k cars for sale right now on ApexSpeed.

[Brian]

There are three kinds of race cars - ones that are about to crash(also called new), ones that have crashed, and ones that are currently in the process of crashing...


Honestly, that's why they are used cars. Sure, there are cars that have never been touched, but most cars get a new part every now and then. the big advantage of new is that you know the repair history (none, presumably) and you get to be "the first" - some people think that's important. At our level, getting a used car that's well maintained and set up right may well be more important.

Brian

[enjoythetrack]

...At our level, getting a used car that's well maintained and set up right may well be more important.

Color me one of those guys. Besides the lower cost of a used car, usually all the growing pains a new car may experience are also (usually) worked out. Add to that, cars have 'personalities' and what needs a bit more attention on the car in a known and that knowledge is passed down so you know what to keep an eye on.

[Blacksport350]

Ross,

This is long but might provide some good info and is what I learned during my recent FE purchase and 4 runs with the car (with my wife behind the wheel):

I paid a premium at the time for a probuilt car with a good history and low hours. It had "all the upgrades" and I had it inspected by a good national level pro shop so I wouldn't have to go look at it as there was no time. What I ended up with was a very nice car that I immediately stripped down and completely went through which I think is a must do with ANY race car no matter what the history is. On my tear down, I found many interesting things like a badly cross threaded fuel vent line that would leak fuel in a roll, subframe bolts that were several turns from tight, steering shaft Apex joint bolt hitting the frame due to bad adjustment, and several other little isses. I then discovered all the little updates for the FE cars that had not been performed and are not commonly talked about like the cable style side pod floor supports (prevent common failure of this part), drilling of wing mounting bracket to prevent damaged bearing carrier in impact, wing mounting reinforcement blocks, return springs for shift cable and some other odds and ends. I then also discovered the stuff that you will want to do to the FE car like the AN bolt kit for the suspension (replaces the OEM bolts which have threades in shear), the Steve Stodel tow hooks, after burner rain light, oil cooler, more anal plumbing, etc.

So in a nutshell, I took a prime pro-built car which had all the updates, upgrades, and enhancments and still found plenty more of the above and problems to fix. There is no such thing as a perfect race car unless you are very skilled mechanically, very anal, and have lots of time. Oh, an don't ever crash which is impossible.

Other upgrades that my car had which I would put on any FE that I bought were the Taylor input shaft, Fast Forward axles, Fast Forward wheel nuts, camlock fasteners on the body, Taylor gears, Comprent worked over gear box and actuator, Jet Hot coeated headers, silicon hoses and a gernerally good quality of build.

Some questions to ask of the person that built the car would be did they clean out the oil reservoir? Did they blow out the oil catch can? Did they check that the front and rear chassis sections were perfectly aligned and shim the subframe? Did they take the bladder out of the fuel cell and tape the seems on the housing? THe answer to all of these will probably be no (which is fine) but they should all have been done and I have seen my local CSR do them when he builds cars.

Tools you will need to own for the FE car are Comprent rack stops, toe bars, gearbox service tray, and the "service pin" for the box to aid in gear removal. Other nice items to own are a good quick jack built for the FE car and some high and low stands.

As tro crash damage, as long as there was no frame damage and all damaged parts were replaced, it is not a big deal. Formula cars are built to go fast and be crashed. Provided the frame isn't damaged, you can rip all 4 corners and both wings off the car and put it back together like new (can't say the same for your wallet) which is what I love about them.

One quick note as it looks like you will by an FE car...I assumed there would be slightly less work to be doen between runs then on an F2000 as it was a spec car. So far I can say that the required maintenance is exactly the same and that most FE cars are not properly maintained as peaple assume that they can do less work to them.

Good luck finding the right car and contact the Enterprises FE technical guru (Chris Doyle) as he will be able to tell you which cars are good and worth paying more for. I talked to him a week ago about the avaialble cars and he knew the history of most of them. He helped me pick mine and I am not unhappy with the choice.

-Carl