Vintage FF vs Club Ford

[Bud Byrnes]

Are most clubs now allowing post 1972 cars, such as the Crossle 32 etc. or is there still a place for the 67-72 cars to compete by themselves?

[timos]

Come on up to Seattle... SOVREN doesn't allow post 72 FFs.

Nor are they likely to for a while, judging from reaction to the mere suggestion of it last year.

tim

[bob darcey]

1972 in RMVR, but it's an annual topic.

Our eligibility expansions (production car classes) have had mixed results. I'd like to hear how the CF expansion worked out in VARA? How did in work out in MR?

Personally, I don't like to see vintage raiding the SCCA entry pool.

[Bud Byrnes]

"Once a camel gets its nose under the tent, the Camel gets in the tent

I have mixed feelings about this topic and VARA. I was on the VARA Board when we allowed Club Fords on a trial basis. I now think it was a mistake to allow Club Fords to race in the same group as true Vintage Fords. Currently the fields are split @ 50/50 VFFs and CFs. In my opinion, there are more CFs that are not as well prepared as their Vintage brethren. Some of them appear to me to be clapped out SCCA/NASA refugees.

The cars that run at the front, in both classes, are all very well prepared and very aggressively driven. They are truly racing and racing very hard. Some folks think they are driving too hard for vintage racing. The concept of the "vintage bubble" is not observed, as near as I can tell. This, in my opinion, applies to both VARA and HSR-West. That said, I am thinking of returning to Formula Ford. There is a great camaraderie in the FF paddock here in California and I truly enjoy that aspect of the racing community.

As to VARA, I have let my membership lapse and I do not plan on rejoining the club, until there are changes on the Board of Directors. My opinion is that the antagonistic attitude that the VARA Board exhibits towards those members that race with other clubs is inappropriate and counter productive. I have suffered what I feel are personal affronts due to my difference of opinion with certain VARA members. I don't like to feel that I am being singled out or penalized because I disagree with the Board. I will race with VARA again, at selected events but for now I am very happy racing with other clubs.

[Rick Kirchner]

First off let me say that I'm not in that run group, BUT, I have to opportunity to observe them almost every race weekend. the pointy end of the VARA/HSR grid in CFF/VFF is pretty much the same regardless of club.

It seems that the difference in tire performance is driving some of the incidents. The VFFs are faster in the first couple of laps on their Dunlops until the CFFs sparkthrower American Racers come in. So, the CFF guys drive a little harder than they should to keep from losing position in the first couple of laps.

It is class racing, beyond the bragging rights of "my '70 beat your '76". Maybe split starts would alleviate the problem, but I'm sure that a lot of guys would just rather race whomever is 4 tenths faster than them that weekend.

If you aren't growing (or at least keeping up with attrition), you're dying. If one looks at design year instead of production year, or design features instead of production year, then damn near every FF and FC out there is vintage. Especially considering the engines!!

It's the spirit of vintage clubs that's the difference. Those of us in VARA FC are getting pretty competitive with each other, but we help each other out between event, critique each other's driving, and share setup secrets. We want to race each other.

[EYERACE]

At a certain point in chassis development and different make cars coming into existence things changed.....

......the engine/bellhousing/tranny became a stressed member as part of the chassis for suspension pickup points - that along with tucked in shocks, springs and radiators for an aero advantage.....and the older fords were suddenly at a performance disadvantage. Rather than merely having a "suspension out in the wind" division between the Ford worlds, it should be a true chassis evolution > harder to do for those who write rules but the proper way divide Fords.

Ok so a Club Ford can have one end of it's suspension still pretty much hanging out in the air......and that means it would always dominate a car with two out in the air? Not a guaranteed thing.

In the argument Vintage vs. Club at times the 'purists' win their argument. I say it is their loss to not have others on the grid. If there are incidents due to the hard compound finally coming on vs. Dunlops, then the thing to do is have split starts and/or serious 13/13 enforcement...........or paint the tires with that "undetectable" traction enhancer.

If there is an unspoken worry that letting CF run with VFF would slowly cause the value of VFF to go down, I say 'stuff that'.......the way some people worry about every dollar in their life is sick.

There are people that knowing or unknowingly do act as if they believe there is truth to the expression "lesser flesh"...........and since that happens, sad as it is, there will be people [not necessarily the same people mind you] that will discriminate in other ways.....and that sadly can be the VFF 'purists'.

[Rick Kirchner]

It's easy to buy a ratty CF and get it on the track in a hurry. But, it seems to me that the owners constantly improve the car between seasons and they end up as nice as any VFF.

Of course, IMHO a lot of the late 70's CFF designs were really homely compared to the old VFF cars, and no matter how many nice parts and nickel plate you put on one, it's not going to be as pretty and valuable as early Loti, Caldwells, and Titans. You can look at Roy Jones' Winkleman WDF-1 and almost see Dan Gurney on the grid at Indy in '66.

[Henrik]

Hi, Is there no place in the US to race a periodically correct car from say 1973 until 1980.

Here in Europe we run the FF1600 under "FIA Appendix K" regulations and are divided in the following categories.

G = 1966-71
H = 1972-76
I = 1977-81
J = 1982-90

All cars have to be as they where in period and run on Dunlop CR82 or Avon ACB9 on 5,5" steels. That means no moving of radiators fitting newer noses or bodywork etc no carbon fibre and no altering of chassis pickup points.

Here in Sweden it means that there is little difference in performance between say 1968 to 1976 cars, The RF79 and RPS02 cars are a bit dominant in Period G but I guess that the VD´s are so just because there are so many of them. My Tiga 77 is as good as any RF79/80/81.

The compepitors are very aware what mods where used during period so there is hardly any cheating in this respect.

During period J the newer cars (85-90) are dominant because of the rapid chassis development in that period. But a good driver in an older car is always quicker than a bad driver in a new car.

/Henrik

[s800racer]

It seems that the difference in tire performance is driving some of the incidents. The VFFs are faster in the first couple of laps on their Dunlops until the CFFs sparkthrower American Racers come in. So, the CFF guys drive a little harder than they should to keep from losing position in the first couple of laps.
.

The different tire performance is not a problem for SVRA, VDCA and VRG on the east coast because CFs are required to run on Dunlops.

[bryancohnracing]

Some of them appear to me to be clapped out SCCA/NASA refugees.[/color]

Since when does NASA run race for FF/CF/VFF? Did I miss the memo? Did I get fired and no one forward the mail? Am I going nuts???

The day I can race my CFF Royale with the sanctioning body I work for (NASA of course) is the day I drop my SCCA membership like a hot potato!

Thanks for the laugh.

[BWC54]

Since when does NASA run race for FF/CF/VFF?

Why doesn't NASA have classes for formula cars other than those TR's?

[rickjohnson356]

Bryan:

Since you are in a position to have the 'ear' of the poweres at NASA, why not start the process to allow formula cars? You could start with just CF and FF in one group initially and then, as entries build, add another group for CFC/FC and/or FV

[Daryl DeArman]

Bryan,

Might want to gauge interest out here. Probably quite a few folks that would love to have an option for current FF/FC other than the SCCA.