Black electroless nickel

[bob darcey]

There's a company in Denver that does black electroless nickel plating. My Lola T 200 has fabricated steel front uprights and I'm considering this type of plating instead of paint. These uprights tend to get a lot of "road rash", and repairable paint may just be the better option. Any experience with black electroless nickel?? Any suggestions??

[Allan T. Chou]

Hey Bob, I've been using a PPG product called DPL90. It's a two part epoxy primer that hardens like a rock. I've been using it on A arms, uprights, frames, and anything else that isn't plated. The finish is a satin black and looks very OEM. You'll have to use a spray gun and make sure you have a lot of acetone or lacquer thinner around to clean the gun immediately after using or else the gun will be a loss. Have been using this on my cars for about 10 years and even the leading edges of the A arms which always get pitted, scarched, and scared up (even with plating) doesn't seem to effect the DPL90. And the nice part is that if it did, you could just touch it up with some more DPL90 as it blends easily. Since it's a primer, you can spray it on bare metal and a quart will go a long way. Good luck Allan

[formulasuper]

I did a search for DPL90 but did not get any results. Could this be what you were refering to; PPG’s DP90-LF with DP-402 catalyst?

[jdp526]

I am using the same primer on a Reynard that I am rebuilding, but I am also topcoating the parts with a single stage PPG urethane product called Concept. The DP epoxy primers are a 'self-etching' primer which should help neutralize any microscopic rust. Primers are available in grey, green, black, and white if I am not mistaken. Keep in mind that the primer can be reduced or thinned and you want to use a reducer for the temps you are working in so that paint flows out smoothly.

I did notice at the TWS double national a few weeks ago that many of the cars do have a satin or flat black finish on susp components.

The black nickel plated finish would look nice and may be more durable. Nickel will tarnish eventually and its usually plated over with chrome.

[Allan T. Chou]

I did a search for DPL90 but did not get any results. Could this be what you were refering to; PPG’s DP90-LF with DP-402 catalyst?

Yes, same stuff, the "L" means lead and the "LF" means lead free for those living in more enviromentally consious states. But the LF will work just as well. Plus I have been working out of a gallon pail for over 6 years now as I had said before, it goes a long way, one or two coats and it's done. So perhaps by now, the "L" may have been phased out.

As for durability, from my own observations, I never had DPL90 painted parts ever chip or abrade off the part that was painted. After a few years, the more heavily exposed sections may show some signs of dulling, but a light coat of WD40 usually brings them back, or else, just touch them back up with some more paint, it blends real nice. Not to knock electroless nickel, but I did have a magnesium upright that was coated with that and after awhile, it did wear down exposing the silver on the leading edges. After I shot it with DPL90, it has yet to wear off. As for plating, no matter what I had done to the part, satin nickel, polished nickel, clear coating, and putting on that 3M clear stone guard decal, the part will almost enevatably start pitting showing signs of rust after a year or two. Needless to say, on our Vintage cars, that's all we can do, keep on re-plating, but on my later cars, Reynard FF82, Lola T594's, etc. it's DPL90 exclusively.

Best place to find this stuff is any good automotive paint jobber, and remember you don't need a lot, it flows real nice and don't forget to clean the gun since it will litteral bond to the internals lol. Good luck Allan

[Allan T. Chou]

I am using the same primer on a Reynard that I am rebuilding, but I am also topcoating the parts with a single stage PPG urethane product called Concept. The DP epoxy primers are a 'self-etching' primer which should help neutralize any microscopic rust. Primers are available in grey, green, black, and white if I am not mistaken. Keep in mind that the primer can be reduced or thinned and you want to use a reducer for the temps you are working in so that paint flows out smoothly.

I did notice at the TWS double national a few weeks ago that many of the cars do have a satin or flat black finish on susp components.

The black nickel plated finish would look nice and may be more durable. Nickel will tarnish eventually and its usually plated over with chrome.

You really don't need the Urethane top coat as that is just a color coat and much less resistant and much softer than the DPL90, unless you are using that on the body. And if so, the DP90 would not be my first choice as it may crack off the fiberglass (too hard). The "90" designates the color as Satin Black, DPL "80" is Satin Grey (great for frames) and the "70" is a Satin White if I recall correctly.

Not to start the great chrome imbrittlement debates, but I have always understood that no race car parts should be chromed for reasons of weaking the metal and the added weight. But yes, no matter what you do with nickel plating, it will always start to pit and rust unless you just keep it covered in cosmoline and in an enviromentally controlled garage. Hey, maybe that's the reason why the vintage ranks have been thinning for the past few years lol. Allan

[Art Smith]

Bob-

no track experience yet. that said I'm having the Viking uprights and some other pieces electroless nickel plated and post plating baked: outstanding corrosion protection and support of early crack detection. the key is to have your parts baked after plating to raise the hardness of the nickel. the firm I deal with in So. Calif. talks about numbers in the range of 65-68 Rc depending on time and temperature............ this is a hardness bake and not to be confused with the post bake required with chrome plating to avoid hydrogen embrittlement!

having posted the above message it occured to me given the Lola badge you might have brazed suspension pieces. if that's the case, I'd recommend consulting with someone with more experience and knowledge about brazed joining technology. specificly, the implication(s) if any to the yield strength, fatigue strength, and toughness of brazed joints exposed to temperature (time at temperature). all of the parts I'm having electroless nickel plated and baked are welded or contain no joints (tie rods, .......).



Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Charles Warner]

As has been said before . . . . . KEPHOS

[TimW]

I understand that many IRL/Champcar teams are using the DPL90 on wheels and such and have reccomended it to others.

[Allan T. Chou]

As has been said before . . . . . KEPHOS

KEPHOS? Ok I give up

[TimW]

http://www.kecocoatings.com/Products/Kephos.html

[bob darcey]

Thanks to all for your suggestions and info. Given time constraints and budget, I'm going to try Allan's recommendation for painting the uprights, and will use electroless nickel on the suspension pieces. Thanks again.

[Allan T. Chou]

Hey Bob, before you send out the A arms, try the DPL90 first, I think you'll be surprised on how good it looks, and a quart will take care of all your suspension parts for about $60. And if you have any pits on the parts, the epoxy primer will level it out as well. Just a thought, good luck Allan

[bob darcey]

Are there any photos of such on your website??

[Allan T. Chou]

Hey Bob, Just about everything that requires satin black, the Reynard frame, SR71 suspension, engine frame, and roll bar, etc. Discovered this stuff around 15 years ago and have been using it since. If properly applied, it really holds up. I've tried everything else and I'm really sold on this stuff, despite the fact that it costs so much less. Post some pics when you get done. Good luck Allan

[jdp526]

Allan, I just painted my '90 Reynard SF frame yesterday using the DPL90. I have already painted the suspension arms and top-coated with PPG urethane so I am going to top-coat the frame as soon as we have some dry weather again. My frame looks very similar to yours but it doesn't have the vertical pieces at the rear end and there are additional braces between roll bar and steering hoop.

Here is a photo before repairs to frame had been completed. I still need to pick up some alum material for floor pan, side panels, seat back, etc. and find someone to cut/bend parts for me.

[Allan T. Chou]

Very nice, 8 years in the evolution of Reynard technology. Too bad you didn't live closer, I just got a brake and shear and dieing to try it out on a real project. But why the urethane top coat? I think the DP90 looks great the way it is and is much harder than any top coat you could put on. Good luck with the project, Allan

[Shep]

Trying to find the PPG DP90LF... Is this the right stuff (attachment)?

https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProduc...3-e87c240f4c09

[Dennis Tapp]

Has anyone tried Por-15? web site stoprust.net Dennis

[John LaRue]

Yes, the DP90 is a good product. It is what we use on the wheels and frame. Very good stuff!

[cmonk]

can the suspension be crack tested without removing the dp-90

[LolaT440]

I have used POR15 on street cars.

The POR15 is very good. I put it on floors of my MGB, inside the fenders and such.

But the color will fade in the sun and get dull.

You need to paint. Or buy the POR Chassis Black to retain the finish.

I am going to chassis black some of my FF parts.

Eastwood makes something , Rust Encapsulator. It looks pretty good. I saw another chemical that strips rust away, a re-usable chemical.

[Purple Frog]

Trying not to start another thread about the same subject...

In the last two days I have read a lot about PPG DP90LF as a coating for suspension, wheels, chassis, etc. The only downside I have found is that UV light dulls it after a while.

DP90LF is recommended by folks like Richard Pare, Allan Chou, John LaRue, etc.

OK... my question. Has anybody used DP50LF ? It appears the only difference is color. DP90LF is black, DP50LF is light gray. I wanted my chassis to be a light color. I'm leaning towards a light gray. And, I'm leaning away from powdercoating. So I thought this product may be a fit.

After the "alterations", i was going to have it media blasted, and then sprayed. Looking for a tough finish. I worry that rattle can products just won't hold up.

Any Thoughts?

[R. Pare]

I've used the grey version a lot, but many, many moons ago, so it may have changed in the meantime. It will work fine as a frame paint - very tough, and easy to touch up if ever necessary. The only downside that I recall is that because it is "flat", it will pick up grime (dirty hand prints, etc) rather easily compared to a gloss surface, BUT, you can clean it easily.

[RobLav]

I used the DP90 stuff to paint my frame and all the suspension pieces. Really good stuff - tough. Richard is right about fingerprintes / grime / etc.

And you can sand it off if you mess up and forget to weld a bracket or two or three.

[ghickman]

I've been using this stuff since the late 80's. It has a sacrificial ion that keeps rust from happening.

Only down side is that it won't hold up to Brake Clean, Acetone, Carb Cleaner, and of course Brake fluid. Otherwise it's easy to spray, covers well, won't rust, easy to remove to do repairs or add-on welding.

DP50 and DP90 are the same product just different color. Make sure when you mix it that you alow it to inoculate (sp?) for 30 minutes for best results.

Gary Hickman
FB #76

[Redbone027]

I wish I would have known last weekend @ the ARRC.....
I used the DP in light grey on the frame of my Reynard & its AWESOME !
the light color looks "cleaner" than black (which I have a quart of if you're really interested), and doesn't chip, crack, or fade after an entire 10 months of racing since I painted it (just kidding - Bruce has cars reaching 9 years old & they look just as good !).
It does have a slight gloss (which looks great) & its super easy to use - flows VERY well if you can paint at all.... & it "forgives the Sins" of having the paint get "thick" when trying to spray ROUND pipes in all kinds of weird orientation to the spray gun (once you've painted a tubeframe - you'll know what I mean)

Call if I can be of help !
Ardie

[Gmretired]

Gent's
Just a word on the primer. We used it in GM as a stone guard and a later variant as a base primer. To do a repair, just scuff up the area with 400 or 600 grit aluminum oxide paper. Wipe down with a mixture of DI Water(Dionized Water) and Alcohol or Naphtha 60parts DI to 40parts Naphtha or Alcohol. The naphtha would be preferable because it will cut through any grease or contaminat better an the alcohol. This stuff has be know to crater if the surface isnt preped right. I can get DI water at Canadian Tire here for $1.39CDN a gallon here Methal Hydrate or Coleman Camp fuel for the Naphtha. One other thing keep it agitated.
Dave

[HayesCages]

If you have any questions regarding the DP products I'd suggest going to your local PPG body shop supplier and asking them. They've been very helpful to me in the past. (I don't believe that they sell any lead bearing products any longer.)
Be sure to ask for the correct pamphlet for the product. It'll tell you what mixing ratios and thinners to use depending on the ambiant temps, etc.
BTW: If you do use this product be very careful when mixing and spraying it, it emits very noxious fumes! A supplied-air respirator should be worn and protective clothing covering your entire body.
Lawrence