Crossle Shocks

[JByers]

For those of you who have run a Crossle 30 series, what double adjustable shocks would you recommend?

[Michael Rand]

Hi Jason, I am sure you will get several suggestions, but mine is one you are likely to laugh at, I just use Bilsteins.
It's true. Stimola keeps telling me how much better the car would feel with Penskes. One of our seriously fast CF guys here in New England uses Penskes on his 45F, Rod Kendall, but told me , in confidence of course, that he really doen't feel any difference and has gone no faster than when he was on Bilsteins.
I'm not convinced the cars are stiff enough, a stable enough platform, for the shocks to have much of an impact.
I know I am wrong and just trying to justify not spending the money, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[racerxlilbro]

I really like my aluminum bodied Koni's. Porter can hook you up. Also, Archie Hodge swears he can get an old set of Bilsteins or Armstrongs to work just as well - at a fraction of the cost.

[andyllc]

Jason and Mike
Two great FF guys. We are going through the same dilemma as we are rebuilding our Crossle 35F right now. I believe we are going to go with Penskes for a couple of reasons, one is parts are incredibly common for them heaven forbid we need to replace anything, I certainly would never hit anything concrete (not saying Bilsteins aren't easy to get) but also just to have the ability to change the settings quickly and easily if need be (ie rain etc), cant hurt.


Andy Brumbaugh

[SteveG]

Penskes and get them from Porter. He's got a really good valving set up figured out. Could save you lots and lots of test time. Ask any of the front runners out here in SFR, they're all running Neil's setup.

Steve

[EYERACE]

spax single adjust.......save the money and buy tires

[flat broke]

spax single adjust.......save the money and buy tires

So what is the thought process here?

I am running an outboard suspension car of seventies design. It has seen very little use so I ran it last season with the original set of SPAX single adjustable units. I "tested" them simply checking for leaks and working them up and down on the bench at different settings. Not very scientific, agreed. I adjusted the shocks to the "middle" setting. Other than ride height, I made no shock or spring rate adjustments through the season. I just concentrated getting seat time.

So the car is going well. My main competition In OFFC group B will be inboard 82-84 Reynards (with high end aluminum bodied shocks). I need to be get the car lighter (I can run 50 lbs less with outboard at both ends) and I am going to replace the shocks.

What is the bottom line? How much would it cost to simple upgrade to replacement SPAX units vs an aluminum Koni vs a high end Penske unit. How much weight saving and superior performance can be gained?

Sure, alot of this is subjective but I would value your thoughts/opinions.

Tony

[Richard Hybels]

"When are are looking for seconds work on the driver. When you are looking for tenths work on the car."
Roger Penske

[bryancohnracing]

I had the original Bilstiens rebuilt and revalved for the Royale and couldn't be happier.

I get to work on my driving, and it's fun to tune the car with fewer options. That is actually harder!

I agree with EYE, buy more tires!!!

bryan

[EYERACE]

well let's see, i'm not sure if this is what you wanted as a reply.......and the rest of you don't make too much fun of me.....my crossle 32f has always had trouble making weight and after the frame up, even more trouble....the FC too. so i'm going to mention a little of what i can remember Joe911 did and then ramble too. replace front spindles with alum. make a smaller sump box. use plain lines rather than braided. drill/slot your rotors. drill your axles. eliminate oil cooler and it's lines. aluminum radiator. use half height nuts if possible and as few spacers as possible. depending on how tall you are, lower your main hoop. i replaced the 32f engine cover with a Porter sourced rear of a [i guess] crossle 55 and shaved off 8 pounds....so figure out how to take weight off your bodywork. do some sit ups etc. and lose 10 pounds off your own body [sorry, pot calling the kettle black probably is the expected reply here, assumed assumption]. get a carbon/kevlar helmet instead of fiberglass. make a fuel cell dipstick and measure to use as little gas as possible. use a plastic fuel filter rather than metal. dang, this is getting difficult cuz like eye know anything. if the belly pan is steel, replace with alum. drill your shift linkage. give all your money to Craig Taylor for an all alum. everything/anything possible in the gearbox and differential. find what wheels you can that are as light as possible.....my revolutions weigh 11 pounds total less than the old "skippy" wheels - find as light weight a wheel as you can. don't use valve stem caps. get lightened CVs. eat a very light breakfast on race day, maybe a de-yolked hard boiled egg and half a baked potato and only drink a cup of honey for lunch and drink what gatorade you like all day...if you're in strong enough physical condition you can reduce intake on race day. drill your pedals. aluminum engine mounts. use narrow not wide front tires. it's after midnight and i've been thinking for a half hour. drill the head of all your major bolts that are not safety wired and don't safety wire them after. use as short a bolt as possible. if your flywheel has not been lightened, do it. i noticed some 32f use smaller diameter tubes running to their front radiator than others. have you tried to see just how small a battery you can run? if you have side radiators, how does one rather than two impact temp. readings? can you drill your steering shaft or if it's made of steel, replace it with alum? aluminum head. alum. valve cover. figure out where [for non critical applications] you can use a smaller diameter fastener. hacksaw off excess length of antisway bar if possible. drill the swaybar link that attaches to A arm, if possible. G'nite

[Larry]

The shocks are not magic, and they can help you go faster--if you work at it! Most people who buy adjustable shocks just leave the settings and valving alone. To get the real value out of the shock, you need to practice, practice, practice. There is no single best setting for all occasions, but a good test program will help you understand how to adjust the shocks for various tracks and conditions.

If you're a "typical" racer, just go with Bilsteins. They're an excellent shock (as far as non-adjustable, inexpensive shocks go). If you're intent on getting the absolute maximum out of the car by doing 5 or 6 practice sessions/year, then spend the $4,000 on Penske, Dynamic, Ohlins or whoever has the shock du jour. They are all excellent, but they will only give you value if you put in the effort.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[flat broke]

OK, now that I have completely hijacked the thread.

EYE, thanks for the ideas. I think i will take the "Penske" money and spend it on lightening the car.

Larry, thanks also, I will run 5-6 test days next season but more for seat time than setup. The only time I play with the current shocks is wet vs dry. For that reason, the bilsteins make sense. I have checked out their web page. It seems aimed at oval track and production car applications. Where do I go from here??

Tony

[Andy Antipas]

I have been the importer for Spax coil over dampers for the last three years. Prices start at $270 and go to $525 each depending on what you want (steel bodied single adj to aluminum bodied double adj.) All are rebuildable.

Spax has had new owners for the last 6 years. Quality and service is much better (TUV certified0. For more information, please feel free to email me off list at aantipas@sopris.net.

Andy Antipas
Titan Motorsport North America, LLC

[true racer]

I think all the above information is useful. Shock choice depends on many factors and circumstances. I have been driving a Crossle 30 fitted with Konis for a couple of years now and have made some value judgements about these particular shocks. The fronts on my car are non adjustable and are too soft resulting in a very upset front end when hitting big bumps. Crossle lays the front shocks down at a severe angle resulting in a poor motion ratio and a digressive rate. The farther into bump they go, the softer the wheel thinks they are. I either need stiffer shocks or adjustable ones to solve this problem. The rears on this Crossle are single adjustable and vary the bump and rebound at the same time. I have found they work well through a single corner but when a quick right-left is required they tend to not deal well with the second turn resulting in mild oversteer. Going stiffer helps this situation but I would rather increase the rebound stiffness only. That takes double adjustable shocks.

Hope this helps.

[FVRacer21]

.... Crossle lays the front shocks down at a severe angle resulting in a poor motion ratio and a digressive rate. The farther into bump they go, the softer the wheel thinks they are.

I has been a long time since I worked on Crossle Shocks. Many years ago, I had someone who would rebuild the Armstrong shocks for SBRS and I did send them out for dyno testing. The above is correct, the motion ratio is "digressive" or non rising-rate, but that was pretty standard for any outboard shock. This is what gave the Crossle and other similar cars a great feel for a novice, a car that was smooth and not twitchy to drive at the limit. One thing that was overlooked was the bump rubber. The original Armstrongs had a very soft bump rubber, while the Konis where much stiffer. Check out "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith (pg 69) for more information on this.

ChrisZ