FC Competition Adjustment

[John Green]

While the reasoning behind the adjustment may be sound, it's still a chickensh*t way of handling it mid-year!

[Purple Frog]

There was a rumor propogated that "behind the curtain" there were all these trick cars being built that would show up at the Runoffs. Apply a bit of common sense to the picture (if you've ever been involved with developing a new car) and you know there just was not enough time nor money to bring such new cars into the picture, get them tested, and competitive. So you run up and snatch the curtain back and ... oh my... there's nothing behind the curtain. That leaves just lonely little Jeremy, that wasn't hiding behind the curtain at all.

I said I agreed with the rule if it was dated as effective October 1. I'll stick with that opinion.

[EYERACE]

[size=2]Mr. Thoennes and others that voted the "competition adunjustment" in must be smoking something.........because......[/size]

[size=2]in past years the same rules existed that would have allowed in the "special motorcycle" FCs to end up at Runoffs.....and they were always showing up and just ruining everybody else's fun too.....weren't they? i rest my case[/size]

[R. Pare]

I'm not so sure about the validity of the arguement put forth by Jeremy Thoennes:

The ONLY way that a pre-93 car could be converted to a motorcycle engine is if it was originally homologated as an FC, NOT as an F2000. Obviously, I am not privy to the VD and Swift homologation papers, but I somehow doubt that they say "FC" on them, as they were designed and marketed as an F2000 - one must remember that the term "FC" at the time was used a little bit differently than it is commonly used now. Also, if the original papers say "Super Vee", it cannot be converted to motorcycle power as Super Vee was not allowed anything but the VW engine, UNLESS the car was converted to MC power and re-homologated as an "FC" prior to '93.

[Mike Ahrens]

My 1990 swift se3 says F2000 on the homologation certificate.

Reminds me of Calvin-ball.

[Podlesni84]

[size=2]If I was an SCCA god, this is what I would have done.[/size]
[size=2]Rule 1- no FC cars at runoffs with bike motors, unless car was raced in SCCA with that configuration before September.[/size]
[size=2]Rule 2- Spec out the motor, wings, wheels, etc that the Reynard has been running this season and make him run them at the runoffs. That way no trick stuff gets put on the car.(I'm sure someone has looked at the car and can verify parts)[/size]
[size=2]With all the options at hand, I think they could have come up with something a little more fair, that is unless everyone thinks the Reynard is unbeatable in it's current form.[/size]
[size=2]Just an outsiders opinion.[/size]
[size=2][/size]

[R. Pare]

Jeremy might also want to check his facts on what he says are the F2000 wheel requirements!

[Sean Maisey]

Richard,

I am in agreement with you. My understanding of the rule is that only older "FC" cars could take advantage of the 'unlimited' engine rule. In essence this comes down to some old Brabham cars that ran 1000cc Cosworths and a (VERY) few cars like Jeremy's that choose to run M/C power and were purpose built (12 years+ ago).

The specter of a Hyabusa powered DB6 is bogus, and the fact that the people defending this rules change have flim-flammed the SCCA rules makers with this Red Herring is simply unacceptable. I want to see justice done and all of this inaccurate BS clouds the situation.

A true racer has spent 12 years developing his car in compliance with the rules, only to be screwed by a few whining competitors when he started to have it all come good. I can't even describe how angry this makes me....

Fuming,
Sean Maisey

[R. Pare]

Yea - it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I think of the level of knowledge our SCCA Tech guru has about the rules!

For those others who don't know what we are talking about: If a car was homologated as either an F2000 or as a Super Vee when it was originally built sometime before '93, for it to be eligible to be converted to MC power, it would have had to have been converted and re-homologated as an FC sometime before the '93 cutoff date. Since '93 ONLY F2000's can get homologation papers issued.

[formulasuper]

"I said I agreed with the rule if it was dated as effective October 1. I'll stick with that opinion."
Purple Frog


For the record, I totally agree with this statement. Timing is everything.

[Mark H]

I'm starting to get what the comp. board was thinking, a few well funded folks have asked me to look at my '84 Reynards papers, and when I said it was a F-2000 from 1984 they said well" OK I'll talk to you later".By!
I wonder how much $$ I could have got for my car if it had said FC?
And what would my baby have looked like after they cut her up for a MC engine.
But my car is apx. 4 sec. off Nat. times at most tracks, so I wonder what it would do with an extra 50hp!! Plus with the '84s bodywork the place I got beat by the new VD's most offten is on long, high speed straights? If someone with a good fab shop re-worked the body, fit a MC engine and hired a good drives this car could pick up more than that 4 sec.

Still wait until this winter to change things?

[R. Pare]

Is that a statement or a question?

[Mark H]

AHHH.. Both? Maybe.
Don't want to start any problems. Just obversations?
I see the CRB's point.
I wonder just how fast an old car can go.
And is it fair to all, to let me find out.... if I had $$?

[R. Pare]

I'm still not sure what you are referring to. If you think that your car is eligible for the conversion, you are mistaken - it is not, since the homologation papers say F2000, not FC. The CRB has no point, or at least, an extremely weak one, since there are only a handful of cars in existence that could be converted.

[Daryl DeArman]

And is it fair to all, to let me find out.... if I had $$?

Most certainly IS fair. The rule doesn't say everybody except Mr. X can find a car that qualifies and do the same thing. That would be unfair. We all have had the same options available to us. We all have the opportunity to test, buy new tires, keep fresh motors, have a suspension guru in our paddock space, do we want to penalize all those who can afford to do the same because it isn't fair to those who can't ?

If the CRB is afraid that the bar will be raised too high and everyone's F2000 will suddenly become low valued grid-fodder, then make the change effective next year.

I suggest an asterisk after the winners name if they supported this change and its' timing...something like:

* This victory really signifies absolutely nothing due to a severe competition adjustment and its' last minute timing. Pitiful sportsmanship.

--Daryl DeArman

[GBugg]

My RF84 was converted to MC power and homologated as FC in Feb 1993.

I was contacted by a national driver a few months ago. But I believe he realized that it takes more than a bike motor to make a "supercar". There would be NO WAY in the world to pick up an old FC car, make the neccessary mods, test, tune, repeat, and be competitive at the ROs.

Add weight (my belly makes up all but 5 lbs of the penalty, anyway ), move us to FS, whatever... but why screw an honest man out of (maybe) his only shot at title?

I agree - those of you that "pulled this off" should be ashamed. SCCA has always been about the people, the competition, friendship. Not this time.

I have no dog in this one, anyway. Just think this is a black eye for our club and (now, your) class. I'll be back downstairs in the Time Trials world.

Good luck to all at the ROs.

[Mark H]

I know that my car is not able to make this change with the F2000 on the papers, folks were asking me if it said FC and when it diden't the said see ya.

[supertiga2]

i did not read all post on this subject--its just a repeat of the past

F-2 and S-2 are not speck car classes--they are spec engine classes--the cars are built to a set of rules and with all sorts of interpretation and variation inside these rules---the engines are built to a speck and have no variations.

what i repeatedly see from scca is atempts to damage any class that compets for sales with the cars scca sells.any member input that helps scca do this is always jumped on and used to sccas advantage(not members)

speck racer vs f-440(500)in the 70S

s-2000 engine changes vs shelby canam(these engine changes destroyed s-2000)

and more


there is no reason for these changes other than scca has new cars to sell--they dont care about members--only their car sales.

rules should never change other than for safty or real parts supply problems.

people who whine to scca because some one may have developed a better mouse trap are either lazy or stupid and are incapable of doing same.scca loves it when you whine--it gives them reason to hurt your class while you belive they are helping you.

with changes like this how long before most people say screw it and buy a scca spec car or just quit racing?my dad quit scca over the thing in the 70s(and it had nothing to do with his class--F-B)i basicly ouit over the shelby canam thing.finaly have dad andi(and son)scca licens agin--may be time to quit agin.scca is a detriment to its members.


just my 2 cents
David

[Scott Hanba]

Sounds like a petition got approved today. A little late, but mabe he can put on a good show for the race.

http://www.eformulacarnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=32

[EYERACE]

very happy to see Hill win the paper struggle..........now let's see what the SCCA does with the proposed rule....."no competition adjustments for 65 days prior to the Runoffs"

[Eric Cruz]

Please remain calm, David. We're only here to help. Pay no attention to the black heckelopters landing in your back yard....

[RacerDave51]

I’m confused—as usual…

It appears to me that the Tech Bulletin TB 05-10, effective 9/1/05, adjusts the weight in section 17.1.6.b.c only. This TB will be nullified by the 10/1/05 change if it goes into affect, as I read it.

Reading further, the CB has, under PROPOSED RULE CHANGES, Formula, Item 2, (effective 10/1/05) revised the Formula Cont Prep Rule by deleting all of the old FC/SV/Motor Cycle stuff and returning it to a restricted class for Ford NE 2L engines only. Is anyone else reading this? Richard, you're good at this stuff..

We're supposed address comments to the Club Racing Board on this before they vote.

Clueless in Tennessee
Dave K

[supertiga2]

Eric
heckalopters are no longer a problem

ak-47 tracers into full cell did the trick!

thanks for the offer to help as we have lots of fiberglass work to do.

David


paranoid people survive--the rest only wonder what happened!

[formulasuper]

"Reading further, the CB has, under PROPOSED RULE CHANGES, Formula, Item 2, (effective 10/1/05) revised the Formula Cont Prep Rule by deleting all of the old FC/SV/Motor Cycle stuff and returning it to a restricted class for Ford NE 2L engines only. Is anyone else reading this? Richard, you're good at this stuff.."
Old and Treacherous

Ya, looks like they might as well drop the FC designation and just call it F2000.

[GBugg]

Yup. That's the plan. The way I understand it we, MC powered cars, will be in FS. Don't know for sure where the Super Vees go - FS?

[supertiga2]

RETURNED to restricted for ford 2.0L?(was it ever?(restricted to 2.0?)


there are some gaps since the 60s when no one in my family was racing.
was there a period when fc was only for f-20000?
or was the f2000 allowed to race as f-c ?
in the 60s
f-c was for various(approved) 1100cc engines(from fia touring car spec)usualy f-2 chassis
f-b was for varrious(app)1600cc--later became f atlantic?Usualy F-2 chassis
F-a was for stock block american v-8--usualy in f-1 chassis

truethfully--im glad we have scca(and have enjoyed every offical i ever met)--the rule writers just should not sell cars(especially considering we pay them so we can race OUR cars)
its just plane old unethical

just currious
David

for those who have not been watching the news(i know we never had time for tv at runnoffs)hurricane rita may wipe out the refinerys west of the ones katrina hit--stock up on gas for trip home--just a thought
we are getting hit hard already(power out for 8hrs already)and the thing is just now close to land fall and we are over 100mile north of the coast!

[John B]

I find this last minute move by the SCCA shocking and appalling. It completely undermines the significance and intent of a rulebook, not to mention the integrity of the organization itself.

I don't know Jeremy Hill at all, but I admire his spirit. I am ashamed at what our club has just done to him.

John Burke

Mid West Division, St Louis Region, FA

[ALW]

Ditto That.

[DaveW]

I find this last minute move by the SCCA shocking and appalling. It completely undermines the significance and intent of a rulebook, not to mention the integrity of the organization itself.

I don't know Jeremy Hill at all, but I admire his spirit. I am ashamed at what our club has just done to him.

John Burke

Mid West Division, St Louis Region, FA

FYI:
The FC competitors ALL signed a petition early in the week, and the SCCA allowed Jeremy to run the race at the weight that was allowed previously. For my part, this was never directly aimed at Jeremy, it was about the possibility of a few rumored "supercars" that might have appeared and bastardized the race had the adjustment not been known to be in the works and then made. Once the "supercar" threat disappeared, everyone, including SCCA officials, agreed that the FC weight rule for the Runoffs should revert to the way it was prior to the Runoffs.

[SIZE=2]EDIT: I was wrong, not everyone signed - see the following posts.[/SIZE]

[problemchild]

People will change their minds (atleast publicly) if there is enough public opinion against

This whole "supercar" rumour really means nothing. People have been upgrading their equipment before the Runoffs since the beginning of time. People have had better cars, teams, and budgets and become National Champions by buying the equipment that would win. Some of the great SCCA multi-time champions were just guys who brought the only Pro car to the amatuer race .... as the rules allow. Who won the FA race?

Had someone built a true FC supercar for the Runoffs ..... within the rules .... good for them! And a giant thumbs down to SCCA for the way the whole matter was handled. SCCA needs to decide if this class is to be FC or F2000. If it is to be F2000, then they need a multi-year plan to phase out the few remaining FC cars. Changing rules (that have been flawed for 12 years) to harm current rule-abiding competitors is just plain wrong.

Jeremy looked like any other FC car out there as his straightline speed, braking, and cornering seemed identical to the mid-pack F2000 cars. He did all his passing with a sling-shot pass at the end of the backstaight .... like all the other FC passes. He only seemed to be able to complete the pass when he aced the keyhole and the other car bobbled .... like all the other FC passes.

The race was very entertaining to watch with the top 4 cars really hanging it out. Great racing to finish off my personal 19 consecutive (and last) Runoff visits.

[mark defer]

dave,
actually the petition was far from unanimous. i know of at least 6 of the top 15 cars on the grid who wouldn't sign, and those are just the ones i discussed it with.

mark d

[BGP]

I am very disappointed that a man of Dave W's stature in the formula racing community was involved in this whole fiasco. To help create such an ordeal over paranoid rumors seems far below the character of the man I have heard so many impressive things about for the last 30 years.
I guess the last minute petition was the best way out.

[DaveW]

dave,
actually the petition was far from unanimous. i know of at least 6 of the top 15 cars on the grid who wouldn't sign, and those are just the ones i discussed it with.

mark d

OOPS!!!

I stand corrected. I thought it had to be unanimous to pass...

[DaveW]

I am very disappointed that a man of Dave W's stature in the formula racing community was involved in this whole fiasco. To help create such an ordeal over paranoid rumors seems far below the character of the man I have heard so many impressive things about for the last 30 years.
I guess the last minute petition was the best way out.

Based on the multiple credible sources of the rumors about the grandfathered FC "supercars" that I thought would appear for the Runoffs, I thought the info had credibility. If they would not have appeared if SCCA had done nothing, I personally appologize for the grief this caused. However, based on my knowledge at the time the ball got rolling, I thought it was the best thing to do.

[SIZE=1]We'll never know what would have happened IF the SCCA had not acted.[/SIZE]

[RussMcB]

Dave, without naming names or providing more info than you're comfortable with, can you let us know what you were hearing back then and why it seemed such a strong possibility that someone would show up with a super car? For instance, did you hear of a team actively searching for an older motorcyle powered chassis that had been homologated for FC? Or did you hear that a team had one and was preparing it?

Dave, you seem to be a very level headed guy, so I can only imaging that you were hearing about some actual activities in the works. It's too hard to believe that so many FC competitors would have pushed for such a drastic rules change based on what someone could do if they were so inclined.

I think if we were to hear about real threats then we might be more understanding about the need and timing of the rule change.

Something else that makes me wonder, it seemed like Jeremy Thoennes didn't have some of the FC rules right. I wonder if he was misled by someone's argument or what.

[DaveW]

Russ,

I AM uncomfortable naming names. I don't want to get anyone else in more hot water.

If they want to respond (some have already posted their opinions on the adjustment, including me), that's their option, not mine.

And, yes, Jeremy Thoennes did have some of the rules mixed up. Only the cars homologated as FC's (not F2000's) prior to 1993 were eligible for this.

Jeremy Hill and I had several fairly long discussions at the Runoffs, and although our viewpoints are obviously different, I believe we both pretty well understand the realities of the proposed rules-change situation (the rarity of these pre-93 FC's, the possibility of ruining a very good class made up almost entirely of F2000's, etc.).

[supertiga2]

'supercars'if it meets the rules then its kind legal
if it dont meet the rules then it cant race!

did you read the rules?by entering you are agreeing to them
before picking a class make sure you agree with da rules
if you dont like them theres other classes
if you want a level playing field then buy a car from scca(kinda dull for my taste)

what ever happens leave people who do it diffrent than you alone.
some of us race to build a better mouse trap

David
hurricane survivor
(car collection survived to).