Safety in FA at SCCA Nationals

[Leo Sismani]

I am getting tired of being hit by backmarkers and others in 5 out of my last 8 nationals.
Twice while in the lead and near finishing and last weekend at Buttonwillow dbl national , while in second 100 yards from finish getting taken out by errant FC hitting S2, who put me in the tire wall . This time I had tub damage along with the continual array of suspension replacing etc.. Forking out money for repairs nearly every race is not fun specially when you do not have the pleasure/justification of crashing from your own mistake.

My question is whether there are too many classes and speed differentials running with FA at SCCA events? Should we have open wheeled only racing?
Has the driving improved or digressed over theyears?
Should certain racers that are well passed their prime in ability (probably all of us) and car prep that are consistently well off the pace and many laps down be allowed to race.

Finally in FA have the costs gotten out of hand with several racers with big rigs and backup cars and $20 /gallon fuels and questionable engine contents changed the principals of "amateur " racing.
Dazed and confused from my minor concussion!

[Charles Warner]

Leo,

Welcome to the vagaries of Club racing. You have raised issues that have been bandied about for years. These issues, and others, are some of the reasons vintage/historic racing is growing so quickly.

[Steve Demeter]

Unfortuantely these things are a fact of life in SCCA club racing. Not that this will make your head or pocketbook hurt any less, but remember that you can win at the top level of FA without the eighteen wheeler, the back up cars and the hired engineer.

Dan Carmichael is a good example of this. Although he retired at the end of 1999, if I remember correctly he finished fifth in the Runoffs, his :entrouage consisted of himself, and 2 other gentleman, an old pick up towing your average nice enclosed trailer, Dan's Ford van and 1 car and engine.

He was very competitive in Nationals right up til the end, winning the Runoffs in 95 with the same.

[MarkM]

Leo,

What do these guys have to say for themselves? This is my first year in SCCA. I run an F/SCCA in the FA class. My first race weekend was a double national with about 35 or 40 in our group and we had no issues. Maybe some of these guys need a discussion. So far this year we have had only open wheel in our group (FA,FM,FC,F/SCCA,Pro Mazda).

[RussMcB]

... and last weekend at Buttonwillow dbl national , while in second 100 yards from finish getting taken out by errant FC hitting S2, who put me in the tire wall.

Was the FC driver at fault? Was he protested?

[Dave Harmison]

I'm a CFF driver (used to run FC but got married) and I've been driving formula cars for 18 years. I've always thought the club needed a 107% rule (feel free to pick a different number) and if you're consistantly below that, you get a regional only license. A national license should be more than just based on participation. It should be probational until you've proven you can run quick and can stay quick. Of course the club could see a drop in revenue but an increase in quality.

[Stan Clayton]

Note to Charlie: Leo may be ready for vintage, but his car isn't!

Note to Leo: Big rigs don't win races, so don't sweat it. Ask any of the 4+ FA guys who brought their big rigs to the '03 Runoffs. They all got beat by a skinny kid driving a pieced together junk yard car towed by a 28-year old Ford van in a 10-year old 24' box trailer. 'Nuf said!

Note to self: People DO get taken out by errant missiles from behind - stuff happens. But as often as not, collisions fall into one of two categories: aggressive drivers fighting for a corner, and faster drivers driving into an already developing situation. And it ain't just in club racing! I couldn't believe the nonsense I witnessed at the recent Long Beach Grand Prix. In just the Atlatnic race I think that three cars took themselves out of the race at turn one by locking horns (wheels) with their neighbors... LOL!!!

Not to mention Formula One.

I'm confident that some of Leo's bad luck was just that, but I ask myself if his Buttonwillow incident wasn't just a little bit the result of trying to put one more lap on a couple of back markers? I know what the closure rate of a well driven Atlantic to slower cars can be, and that often the temptation is to simply drive around slower guys, but if Leo attempted to get past those guys while they were tangling and then got caught up in their situation, one can hardly lay ALL the blame for his damage on them. After all, we all know that slower cars are lumped in with faster ones in club racing. They are entitled to their race as well. And it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to do so safely.

I'm not just picking on Leo here. Heck, Rennie has had at least two incidents which added up to 5-figures of repairs as the result of overtaking slower traffic. One didn't see him and moved down on him (at Buttonwillow), but in the other he tried lapping an already spinning car, swinging widely around him, only to have the guy pin our Ralt to the wall, breaking the tub. Ouch! Those were expensive lessons, as in both cases Rennie was well out in the lead and unchallenged.

YMMV.

[M.L.Sauce]

In the SW Division our Chief Stewards will black flag a car if he/she is interfering with another race or going too slow.We enforce the 120% rule quite often.I personally think it should be 110% because when you have multiple classes running together the speed differential between an Atlantic and any other slower car in a slower class is huge.We have had cars as much as 15 seconds a lap slower on a 1.8 mile track. We have had 45 cars in the race with those kind of speed differentials.It is a recipe for disaster.I think the Vintage stuff is too far the other way as well.I believe there is middle ground between SCCA and Vintage. We as drivers must demand to have the rules enforced and safety is part of it.

[John Nesbitt]

Your reference to 110/120% rules caught my eye.

The DC Region currently runs 9 groups. I spent a few minutes looking at groupings and speeds. I based my calculations on the various class lap records (yes, I know these are mostly from nationals, and different classes have different speed profiles, but there is no other consistent basis for making a comparison).

In two of the current groupings (CF/FF through FA, and T2 through GT1) the speed differential, as measured by lap record, is about 13% (ie. the fastest class lap record is 113% as fast as the slowest).

There has been a proposal to amalgamate the fast formula cars and the slower formula cars (Vee and F500). This would yield a group with a speed differential of 26% (ie. the fastest Atlantic is lapping 26% faster than the fastest Vee). If you consider the slowest Vee -vs- the fastest Atlantic, you would get a much bigger differential.

[David Ferguson]

There are some pictures posted on the S2 board that show the most incident at Buttonwillow on the last turn unfolding. Here's the thread:

http://p081.ezboard.com/fs2racingfrm...icID=213.topic

[Rennie Clayton]

There are some pictures posted on the S2 board that show the most incident at Buttonwillow on the last turn unfolding. Here's the thread:

http://p081.ezboard.com/fs2racingfrm...icID=213.topic

Looks about like the situation Stan alludes to in his post above when I "tried passing a car that was already spinning" - pretty much unavoidable. In my case, I was driving into the blind section of the Canyon at Firebird (if you've been there, you know...) and saw the FC sideways at point where all I could do was swerve to try to avoid him, whereas Leo was nearly next to the FC that dropped a wheel into the dirt and did an immediate left-turn into the K-wall, collecting Leo in the process.

It's pretty damned easy to say that he should have backed off and just coasted across the finish line behind this gaggle of lapped traffic, but who's to say that he wouldn't have been caught up in some other fracas as a result of backing off? Sometimes these things just happen the way they happen, and it's racing...


Cheers,
Rennie

[reisertracing]

It is difficult when too many cars are on the track at once. There should be more thought into assigning classes to run together.
In Chicago Region FV run alone, large class and F500 in Natrionals too much speed differential.

FA are very fast and open wheel cars mixed with sports racers(close in speed ) is a bad mix also. Like putting Spec Racers with CSR and DSR but makes more sense.

As a FC driver, the cars are varied and we run with FM who we have had issues for years and practices /quals at Runoffs.

There seems to be more FA's running now, and perhaps they should run alone or with other faster open wheel classes. It only makes $ense.

Since SCCA owns Spec Racer, maybe if they were to run with other sports racers, then the majority would rule.

I agree that the overtaking car has responsibilty to make the safe pass. Spotters would help.
Most drivers seem pretty open and ready to yield to a faster car, but there are always guys that don't have any regard for others and giving room, they seem to be the ones with deep pockets.

[T492]

The GCR states;

16.1.2. Practice/Qualifying
There shall be at least forty-five (45) minutes in total of practice and/or qualifying time available to each class. All cars entered in the event shall practice and qualify by race group. Each competing driver/car combination shall qualify within a maximum of 120% of the qualifying time of the fastest qualifier in his or her class in order to be permitted to start the race unless waived by the Chief Steward.

This does not mean you have to qualify within 120% of the fastest qualifier in your run group!!

[Marshall Mauney]

The DC Region currently runs 9 groups.
[...]
There has been a proposal to amalgamate the fast formula cars and the slower formula cars (Vee and F500). This would yield a group with a speed differential of 26% (ie. the fastest Atlantic is lapping 26% faster than the fastest Vee). If you consider the slowest Vee -vs- the fastest Atlantic, you would get a much bigger differential.

Why does DC run 9 groups? Are the entry counts really high enough to require it, or is some regional group getting a single-class group?

Combining FV and FA is, in a word, stupid. However, I would suggest that F500 is so close in speed to FF that it shouldn't be any worse than FA/FF (but that's bad enough). Personally, my vote would be to split open-wheel by winged/unwinged. This gives a group of FA/FC/FM and a group of FF/F5/FV, and minimizes the differential between slowest and fastest. Most of the NEDiv Nationals run FC/FF and F5/FV, and it seems to work OK; in SEDiv it tends to be FA/FC/FM and FF/F5/FV.

I would also suggest that the non-winged open-wheelers should NOT be grouped with sports racers - the fendered cars simply can't see Vees, 500s, and Fords in their mirrors. I have had TONS of trouble getting run off the road by DSR and SRF in test days when we were combined, both in 500 and Ford. I can't directly speak for the big-bore formula cars, since I have never driven one, but it seems that the wings give them more visibility in the SRs mirrors, thus grouping FA/CSR doesn't appear to be as bad (again, this is just an outsider's view).

The biggest point, however, is that the open-wheelers have among the highest national participation rates of the SCCA classes. What's wrong with giving the open-wheelers (1/4 of the netional classes, and closer to 1/3 of the national entries) 2 run groups to themselves? Why would we have to stuff the lower-count CSRs into a group where they create safety problems, rather than putting them in with the similar-format SRF? It's not like we have to pump up the car count in these groups....

...I feel a CRB letter coming on.....

[P.W. LeCain]

The NEDIV rarely runs FA with FC. FA usually gets stuck with CSR, S2000, FM, and DSR. I have no idea why SCCA won't run FA with FC on a regular basis as their speeds are at least in the same ballpark, they are both open-wheeled, and similar weight.

[size=2][/size]

[Scott Gesford]

The first regional at Summit had well over 300 entries including several 50 car race groups like Spec Mazda. The Wings and things group was FA, FC, FF, CF, CSR, DSR and still only managed 17 entries 7 of which were CF's so combining them with FV would decimate the race group.

John's theory doesn't really hold up in real life using track record times compared to what the times are like today. I'm not sure why but I would guess it is due to spec tires but the CF times are slower than they used to be. No disrespect intended, just stating the facts.
Here's the times from the last race at summit. You can see the 10 sec differential between the classes. I have no problem with the Club Fords. It's just that at Summit if you catch slower cars at some points of the track it can be very hard to pass. My main gripe is the flaggers in the chute don't seem to have much of a concept of closing speeds and don't use the blue flag very much.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeefq1c/M1RES1.pdf

Simply put, the open wheel class at Summit is in trouble and needs entrants. If they try to combine us with the FV/F500, it will kill the classes.

[John Nesbitt]

John's theory doesn't really hold up in real life using track record times compared to what the times are like today. I'm not sure why but I would guess it is due to spec tires but the CF times are slower than they used to be.

I grant that lap records don't show individual variance in lap speeds, but they do give an 'objective' indication of the absolute differences among classes.

As a relative newcomer, all I have ever driven on is GY 600's, so I can't comment on tire differences. I am told that there is drastically less grip.

Also, CF used to be a well-supported, intensely competitve class at Summit Point (on non-spec tires). I see a huge drop in CF/FF numbers at SP since 2000.

Simply put, the open wheel class at Summit is in trouble and needs entrants. If they try to combine us with the FV/F500, it will kill the classes.

Precisely. The production based groups are filling up, and the two formula groups are putting up only 17-25 entries each. If there were 30 CF/FF/FC/FA's coming out this issue would not even be on the table.

[Larry]

I would urge everyone to re-read T-492s post! The 120% rule applies to the fastest time in your own class, not in the race group!

The problem is simply that SCCA has too many classes. Unfortunately, the problem will only get worse, as we introduce classes such as SM, while keeping classes such as GP and HP alive. And yes, the DC region suffers from the necessity to run 9 groupings, and we may need to consider even more. All we need to do is get more hours of daylight and more workers.

The DC Region National was a perfect example of why this problem will not go away. Morning sessions were largely in the rain, and we had to shut down for 45 minutes while a thunderstorm passed. Afternoon sessions were marked by cars getting stuck in traps and the lack of a hot-pull capability due to deep mud where we would have used the emergency vehicles. One afternoon session only had about 8 minutes of clear track time. Morning sessions were often outside the 120% rule, yet there were several racers in the afternoon that didn't get clear laps, with no fault due to themselves.

The only possible answer is to instill in the drivers the need to use good judgement, and to be aware that they may be f*cking up someone else's race if they don't use good judgement. Personally, I'm not optimistic. Racers are, by nature, aggressive, and aggressive people make mistakes. Few of use race enough to truly be highly proficient, and our cars have very different capabilities. Therefore, "luck" will continue to be an important factor, meaning that you will need some luck NOT to be involved in someone else's accident.

Larry Oliver

[Stan Clayton]

I have heard of regions experimenting with restricted regionals, where one or more run groups are dropped from each event on a rotating basis. The members of that run group are encouraged to come out as workers for the event, but they won't race.

Might be part of a solution to the 'too many classes' issue.

[Charles Warner]

If the Club doesn't pay attention to the dynamics involved and keeps adding these (inane) classes just because someone asks for it we will soon see a schism between the Formula/Sports Racers and the Tin Tops. As Larry points out, there ain't enough daylight or resources to run efficient races with the number of varied entrants we are beginning to see. This is exacerbated by specialized groups (i.e. $%#& Legends) who want their own run groups and parking areas! (What's next? Drifting???) I can see races restricted to Tin Top only. If that happens will the same region be required to have another race for open wheel/sports racers? I doubt that track schedules, and regional budgets, could afford that.

[Marshall Mauney]

The problem is simply that SCCA has too many classes. Unfortunately, the problem will only get worse, as we introduce classes such as SM, while keeping classes such as GP and HP alive. And yes, the DC region suffers from the necessity to run 9 groupings, and we may need to consider even more.

Remember that when SM was added as a national class for '06, GT4 & 5 were combined into GTL, keeping the national class count at 24. The profusion of new classes is at the regional level, not the national. It strikes me that issues brought on by too many local-option classes need to be solved by the local regions, not by amending the GCR.

That said, I'd still prefer not to see FV and FA together, nor open-wheel and SRs.

[John B]

My 2 cents.
I think the idea of splitting the open wheel cars into winged (FA,FC,FM) and Non winged (FF,F500,FV) is a very good one if car counts accomodate that. Secondarily, if car counts are low, or whatever other reason dictates other combinations I think it is much preferable to group by speed than by open/closed wheel. i.e if it came to it, I would I would much prefer to run CSR,DSR,S2 closed wheel cars with FA than run FV with FA. The absolute speed differentials between FA & FV are too great for safe racing in my opinion.

I'm fine with running FA with CSR,DSR & S2 when necessary. But running FV with FA is where I draw the line. If I ever show up at an event where FV is grouped with FA I will withdraw my entry, period. It's simply not worth it, somebody could get killed.

John Burke

[Jim Crawford]

FA-FC-FS-FM-FSCCA-CFC-FF-CFF-F500-FV. Because of speed differentials there are 3 groups here alone.
How about FA-FB-FC-FF-FV, using updated guidlines from the GCR of 1973. If your car does not fit, it can not run.
It seems everytime someone comes up with a new concept SCCA adds a new class. What happened to the days when cars were designed and built to run in an established class. This sounds like the "no racer left behind" idea. Or, we need to be "all inclusive". BS! Set a class with rules and the builders will conform if they want to sell cars. OK, because of older, slower cars you can set a Vintage open wheel class.

[John Nesbitt]

FA-FC-FS-FM-FSCCA-CFC-FF-CFF-F500-FV. Because of speed differentials there are 3 groups here alone.
How about FA-FB-FC-FF-FV, using updated guidlines from the GCR of 1973. If your car does not fit, it can not run..

This doesn't solve the real problem - the absolute decline in open wheel numbers. It's simple demographics; the SM etc. numbers are exploding and the formula numbers are declining. This drives the proposal to collapse all the formula classes into one run group.

Even with an FA-FB-FC-FF-FV configuration, you will have the same speed differential.

It seems everytime someone comes up with a new concept SCCA adds a new class. What happened to the days when cars were designed and built to run in an established class. This sounds like the "no racer left behind" idea. Or, we need to be "all inclusive". BS! Set a class with rules and the builders will conform if they want to sell cars. OK, because of older, slower cars you can set a Vintage open wheel class.

See above. If all open wheel cars are lumped in one run group, you still have a safety issue. You would need to discard either the fastest class(es) or the slowest. Which ones do you propose to throw overboard - the Atlantics or the Vee's?

The only good solution is to get the entries back up to numbers which justify two run groups.

[Jim Crawford]

John,
You have good points, but my thoughts are the FA, FB and FC classes won't be that different in speed on most tracks and could run as one group. This is if FA was all open wheel cars meeting the current Formula Atlantic rules that are composite chassis (RT-40, RT-41, 008, 014, Pro-Mazda, ect.) and some car configurations that are currently classified FS. This would be more like the FA (not to be confused with Formula Atlantic) of years ago.
FB would be all Formula Atlantic cars that meet the current Formula Atlantic rules but are not a composite chassis. FC would be configured to be close to the FB class to include FM, FSCCA, F2000, ect.
FF could also be tweeked to allow for any 1.6L pushrod motor built to factory specs. FV is a great class best left to current rules. FF and FV could run as a second group.
So what I thinks we have is two open wheel groups to allow the running of five classes of open wheel cars.
I am sure there would be some tweeking required of the classes but I think there would be more paticipation and increased racing competition. The problem now is that if you were to go open wheel racing what class would you want to run?

[John Nesbitt]

Jim,

I am completely with you; the open wheel community has fractured into way too many classes, which exacerbates the decline in total participation. With great respect for their proponents, new classes like FSCCA, Formula First and F1000 are making open wheel less attractive, not more. Who wants to take up formula racing when there are so few entries to play with in any given class?

As a CF owner, I have a stake in the current rules. But I would be willing to buy into an overall formula car plan along the lines you describe, even if it cost me some money, if I knew that we would arrive at a simplified class structure and promote more entries.

My intervention was prompted by my experience at the regional level, where the state of open wheel racing is so parlous (at least in the DC region), that there is serious talk of amalgamating all the open wheel classes into one run group. The best way to take this off the table is to get numbers up to a level that justify at least two run groups. Simplification would help.

[Jim Crawford]

We all agree there needs to be a plan, and the plan should be keep simple. How can we jump start this and get the powers to be to bring about a decission? I have heard about some group of people studing the issue, but I have been hearing about this for going on 4 years. I want to go play and I want to do this with as many like minded folks as possible. I have enjoyed this sport since 1973 and would like to continue doing so. If you can't see your wheels, you're not racing!