pro mazda in fa

[bill gillespie]

larry connor holds the fa track record in scca national racing at road atlanta in his rt41 at 120:827. this weekend the pro mazda pole time was 118.:640....over 2 seconds faster. the top 21pro mazdas were faster than connor's lap record
looks like big h/p, sequential no-lift upshift, left foot brake with cluthless downshift, skinny tires, and traction control make about 2 seconds/lap advantage.
do any of you long time competitors think that some equalization steps would be considered by the comp board? fair competition is a good thing, but it seems the pro mazdas were included in fa a little prematurely.
i hope this doesn't sound like sour grapes, but flame away!
regards,
bill

[Charles Warner]

Bill,

Not doubting your numbers, but, is it possible Larry's time was set with the chicane and the Pro Mazda without? I have a hard time believing the Mazda is that fast, but I've been wrong lots of times.

[Paddy O'Brien]

The June Sprints at Road America will be a good test for how well the pro Mazdas fit in club atlantic. There should be several examples of "regular atlantics" and pro Mazdas at that event. I will bet that the Mazdas will dominate the top ten there but what can the comp board do to slow the Mazdas down? More wing? I was told by a fellow on the formula car board that they want the regular atlantics to remain the dominant car in the class,but it already may be too late for that! I would hate to see club atlantic become another spec scca car class.

[stonebridge20]

As an old Atlantic guy, I feel for you guys! I was at LimeRock last year engineering a Nascar Busch north car and the Mazda's were there also. I had my head in other places at the time, but when I heard the Mazda's were in the 47's it got my attention. The last time I drove my Atlantic at LimeRock in 1993 I qualified at a 47:4 and nobody has gone quicker since. The track has gone downhill quick since the re-pave in 93 and that's why nobody has gone quicker even in the Ralts or newer Swifts. When I heard the Mazda's were down to those times, I thought....Damn those things are QUICK! It's very surprising to me that you Atlantic guys let this happen. If LimeRock is any barometer, You guys are going to get your asses handed to you!

Mike Agnifilo

[bill gillespie]

charlie and paddy,
both connor and the pro mazdas ran the same course configuration......i watched them, and the times are accurate......the well-developed mazdas are that fast......21 mazdas qualified better than connor's lap record.
there are many ways to slow a car down....atlantic size tires on the mazdas, restrictors,
minimum wing angles, weight, etc.
i'm sure this is a repugnant post to the mazda folks, but that car was designed for a spec pro class, not a historic class like atlantic...........maybe the car belongs in fs, not fa.
regards,
bill

[reisertracing]

The rules don't allow traction control in FA, at the beginning of a race weekend file a protest on the Pro Mazdas, this issue is strickly financial, Mazda pumps alot of green into SCCA and the Pro Miata and other series are about the only Pro series left for SCCA.
There was no probation period in Regional class for Pro Mazda as there was when the original FM came out in 1995-96. I know, I ran a FM in 1996 and we were ineligable for National class for a few years.
In regionals we had to run as atlantics although we were outclassed.
These new Pro Mazdas are fast and have set new records at many tracks, My friends with FA plan to protest them at the SCCA events and challange the traction control which FA rules strictly prohibit.
This was slipped in without notice. We FC have had the same experiences with the Zetec.
If you look at the "Sports Car" January the Mazda ad reads eligable (Pro Mazda) for FS class in the ad, then a added later message has in different ink, eligable in FA added later before the mag went out and at the last minute.

It ain't right and it ain't fair, the crapper here is that the PRO MAZDA series chose IMSA and not SCCA for there sponsors. Now SCCA opens the doors, what a kick in the A!

[bill gillespie]

traction control is not a big deal, except in the wet...on these cars. defeating this feature will not level the playing field by itself.
i guess dollars have spoken again....kind of like when toyota bought the series and banned the cosworths in pro, and then swift got rid of the faster ralts.......i guess you can tell i'm the new owner of a rt41/cosworth......swimming upstream with the rest of the fish.
regards,
bill

[Charles Warner]

Bill,

I have already brought this up to the rest of the Advisory Committee members. No responses of significance as of yet but I think it is fair to say it will create some discussion. Whether we will have enough pull to get some serious competition adjustments or not is unknown, but I, for one, will push for it.

Since you watched, did there seem to be any particular area where the Mazdas were quicker? I know it's hard to tell but did the straight line speed seem more of an advantage than the handling? I would think so. Maybe a drag penalty ala the RT-41 wings under Vicki.

[Steve Demeter]

Bill,
RT 41 COSWORTH??

Thought the RT41 came out well after the Toyota invasion.

The RT 40 came new with a Toyota and even a lot of DB-4's weere converted to Toyota and run in the pro series that way.

Now what I's like to find is a DB-4 Cosworth.

Fast, 1000 + mile rebuild intervals and relatively low cost.

[Paddy O'Brien]

Steve, Ive considered the cosworth but I think the Toyota is still the best choice for a "real" atlantic motor. I regularly go over 900 miles on mine but I shift at 9600-9800 and the internals are "stock" TRD, dyno says 242 hp at 9600. A "competitive-with the Mazda" 265 hp Toyota,Cosworth or Mazda(12b) will not go 900 miles. Also currently, lots of Toyotas are for sale by all of the pro teams going out of business lately, so 8k will buy a fresh Toyota(price of a rebuild) The cosworth is heavier and more expensive and I have heard that it was maxed out in terms of its potential.

[Charles Warner]

Paddy,

I have to ask (and contend) your use of the "real" atlantic motor comment. As the BDD motor was the mainstray of the atlantic series and class for many years I wonder at the implication. I have had atlantics powered by both BDDs and Toyotas and I much preferred the Cossie. The only reason I ran Toyotas was that the Reynard was designed for it and I did not want to undergo the expense of conversion. As for the Cossie being maxed out - talk to Steve Jennings. I found the Cosworth quite reliable and easily got 1000 miles, not that I had any serious problems with the Toyotas either in this area. If you are looking at $8k for a Toyota rebuild then the prices have certainly escalated in the last few years.

[KevinFirlein]

our apx 260 hp " club racing bomb" toyota has no problems going 1000-1200 miles shifting at 10k with rev limiter programmed to 10200. Engine built by Loyning

when i ran my rt4 with a MWE short rod cossie pushing 250hp i ran it the same 1000-1200 miles shifting 9500 and running no rev limiter at all. runoffs i ran it to 10k I stopped runnig the cossie in 1998 and would bet if we had continued running it and developing it the power would have increased to the level of current competitive toyotas.

Kevin Firlein

[bill gillespie]

paddy and kevin,

steve jennings built all of my coswoths in the rt4, db4 cars, and they were the best atlantic motors available to me at that time....iwent through the toyota thing in my rt40, but have been out for a few years.
when i acquired the rt 41, i sweet talked steve into building an alloy block, short stroke cosworth bdss for us.....about 30lbs lighter, lower c.g. higher rpm......don't know about horspower....never asked steve, and all he said was that it was too much for my punk son!
dennis eade has been kind enough to take on the conversion,but it will be a little while

before running the car.......ian algie has to take care of some tub issues.

regards,
bill

[Paddy O'Brien]

Kevin, As a prep shop owner perhaps you can educate me. I know zip about motors except what I have been told by the engine builders I have used. I have learned over the years that for me it is best just to trust whatever they say and do what they say and pay your bill on time. I am using Arnie now but have used Hasselgren and have had zero motor problems with the Toyota since 1996. I have asked both guys about milage and they both indicated to me that even a mild tune motor like mine is on borrowed time at 850 miles. Both laughed at me when I asked about a 1k mile motor. On several rebuilds I have been told of main bearings nearly wiped out, all on sub-1k mile motors. Both said that the mods to get the big hp like cams, big valve crank, long rods,others?? will cut expected milage to under 500 miles. I was told that most of those mods don't do much for power below about 10k. I heard there was recient TRD piston/rod update that has increased milage as piston failure used to be the weak link. Any other recient upgrades? I understand that there are several reasons for an engine builder to encourage more frequent $7-10k rebuilds!! Am I getting some engine builder bs here?? So what are you guys doing to get that kind of reliability? I am running carbs and redline oil, but I don't think FI helps reliability,does it? I am thinking about putting together another motor, I would be very interested in a 260 hp 1200 mi motor!!!

[Charles Warner]

I can not speak to Hasselgren, but you will not find a more honest or professional engine builder than Arnie. As any of them will tell you, any time spent above a certain rpm will reduce the efective life of the motor. I ran my BDDs and Toyotas at about 9200-9400 rpm and geared accordingly. Sure, some are pushing as much as 11,000 and are paying the price in reliability. FI may help reliability a bit depending on the fuel mapping chosen, but the carbed version will make more power. There is a reason the pro atlantic series (using Hasselgren engines - not C2) are limited at 9600 rpm. They are looking for reliability and a way of keeping those with the deepest pockets from buying horsepower some of the others can not afford.

I don't think the oil has anything to do with it, although I prefer Mobil 1.

[KevinFirlein]

Paddy there is no magic here. Arnie has been building our engines since 2001. we are currently running all the " club" updates. Bigger valves, different cams, lonnger rods, larger rob bolts, nearly 6lb lighter crank( cheaper then trd btw) under rail injection and switched from EFI to pectel for management.

when the engine was a standard issue trd pro style motor we did the rebuild at 750 miles. That was with the built in EFI rev limit of 9800. When we updated the engine on 01 we did everything that was available at the time. ( under rail injection for the rt-41 didnt come on line till ther winter between 02 and 03. and pectel at end of 03) Engine didnt make the power arnie thought it would so we also put a new cyclinder head on it and all was sorted out. When i asked about what all this was had done to our rebuild mileage arnie said no problem going 1000 miles. He told me that Rennie had gone 1300 at 10,200 but i never asked Stan directly about it.

Only maintance the engine gets is the normal oil and filter change every weekend. I use the valvolie 20w50 but Arnie recommends the mobil 15w50 the last i asked him about oil. I run 2 oil filters on the car but the second one is after the oil leaves the engine before it enters the cooler to make sure nothing gets caught in the cooler. I do run both a water and oil thermostats which i think is critical.

The 3/8 rod bolts are far superior to the standard trd 5/16. I suppose th elighter crank might be easier on the bearings but dont know for sure. The other side of things is the abuse the individual driver puts on the engine. Ask arnie sometime about the pro races when they would see revs as high as 14k on downshifts by drivers. Most drivers seem not to notice how high they send the revs on downshifts. Its only briefly sure, but it is still hurting the engine.

The engine has a great power band for a FA car. It heads north of 240 at 8800 rpm and heads north of 250 at 9500 and keeps going. The only " downside " of all th eupdates was with the addition of the under rail injection and the other ijection and mapping changes that were done at that time. The car now drivers like a carb car. Below 7200 rpm or so the engine is dead as a door nail. Of course there is never a reason to be down that low. With the original EFI injection setup the motor pulled cleanly down to 6000 rpm even though it wasnt making hp. I put " downside " in quotes since i dont think there is any reason for a driver to be that low in revs.

I've only ever used Arnie for toyotas and wont ever send one to a different builder. HAs always been fair and easy to talk to and turns engine around for me in a very short period of time. Been as short as 6 days from running in our car and being back in the car. Keep in mind 2 of those days were shiiping from Maryland to portland and back again.

Kevin Firlein

btw Mucha told me he runs his mazdas for more the 2000 miles. I just wont ever use one since i hate the damn sound !

[Charles Warner]

Here is the response I got from Stan Clayton regarding this issue when posted on the Advisory Board site. (Copied with Stan's permission.)

"I think one has to compare Pro Atlantics with Pro Mazdas - not Pro Mazdas against Club Atlantics.

The Pro Mazda guys are hot young shoes with big budgets and fully qualified engineers behind them, not to mention week-in and week-out hundreds of miles on track. But even with all that talent and money, they can't hold a candle to the Pro Atlantic guys. Both series run at Portland and Road America, so let's look at their times from last year at those two tracks.

At Road America, the Pro Mazda pole and fast race laps were 2:04.621/2:05.745. The Pro Atlantic guys times were 1:59.504/2:00.452 - 5 seconds a lap quicker in both qualifying and the race. The club Atlantic record is a 2:04.

At Portland, the Pro Mazda guys' times were 1:10.362/1:12.360, while the 1:07.155/1:08.044 - the Atlantic guys were 3 seconds quicker in qualifying and over 4 seconds quicker in the race. The club Atlantic record is a low 1:10.

Pro Mazda times at Mid-Ohio were 1:19.452/1:20.476, while the Pro Atlantic guys ran (in 2003) 1:15.668/1:16.405 - and again the Atlantics were 4 seconds quicker than the Pro Mazdas. FWIW, the club times for Mid-Ohio (pro configuration) are a 1:19 qual/1:20 race lap.

Finally, the guys who run the quickest times in Pro Mazdas are not (to the best of my knowledge) the same guys who are showing up at club races. At least out here on the Left Coast, the Pro Mazda cars are getting crushed by any Atlantics that show up. But I guess that time will tell."

I hope that eases some of the tensions. I guess it's a matter of wait-and-see.

[bill gillespie]

charlie,
with all respect to stan, i stand by what i saw at road atlanta...this weekend, this year.
21 mazdass faster than connor's all-time atlantic track record......not all 21 were mega-funded shifter kart hot shoes with unlimited testing and no fear of death.
maybe ask tom nastasi.......he drives both types of cars, and is in a far better position to judge than i.
regards,
bill

[Charles Warner]

Bill,

I think Tom would be a great source for comparison. Can you contact him?

[Stan Clayton]

charlie,
with all respect to stan, i stand by what i saw at road atlanta...this weekend, this year.
21 mazdass faster than connor's all-time atlantic track record......not all 21 were mega-funded shifter kart hot shoes with unlimited testing and no fear of death.
maybe ask tom nastasi.......he drives both types of cars, and is in a far better position to judge than i.
regards,
bill

Bill, please rest assured that I do not doubt that your data from Road Atlanta are correct. But you are still comparing pro drivers in a pro race against club drivers in a club race, and I question how valid that comparison may be.

Last year I tracked the performance of the Pro Mazdas against club Atlantics at a number of tracks/configurations where the two cars ran. You can read the results here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rps1976/I...0FM%202004.txt

As any interested reader can see, it is far from clear that even the very fastest Pro Mazdas have any consistent advantage over traditional club Atlantics, so I urge Atlantic drivers to watch the performance of Pro Mazdas in club events before jumping to any conclusions. As for those considering protesting the Mazdas' traction control, I suggest you re-read the GCR and FasTracks which deal with the issue - traction control is specifically permitted for those cars.

Best regards, Stan

[Steve Jennings]

Just get the car done. The 2006 version is well along.

Did I really call your child a punk ??

Steve

[bill gillespie]

hi steve,
i'm thinking calm thoughts again........i'm pushing on the chain, but composite guys who do great work are also in great demand............not sure that you used the term "punk"..
that was my editorial license, but a rose by any other name..................lol,
best regards,
bill

[Paddy O'Brien]

Interesting comments here. My solution to the Pro Mazdas is to let them run in FA in thier full pro spec., even give them tire choice. Leave all other rules the same except bump up twin cam capacity to 2000cc from 1600 and allow the 13b Mazda motor. I am getting horny just thinking about a 300hp atlantic car!! I would think the gearboxes would take it and possibly REDUCE costs due to more modern engine choices.

[Charles Warner]

There is no way the gearboxes would take that much. They are marginal as it is unless you are running an FT. Besides, we are back to that old saw of obsoleting extant cars. Not a nice thing to even consider.

[D.T. Benner]

Well Charles and Paddy some one is about to find out if an 014 Gearbox will live with (almost) 300HP. My Northern California FS buddy Garham Rankin is building a Swift 014 with a 290 HP Vauxal 2.2 liter engine. He had the same engine in a Ralt RT-4 and that setup was fast. I'll wave to him as he goes by!

[Charles Warner]

RT-4 uses an FT. Those gears take a great deal more power and live. The Mk 5 gears are stressed in their current situation. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[Paul LeCain]

I've been wondering how a short-stroke Cosworth (or Toyota if someone wanted to build one) is SCCA legal.
The Formula Car Spec (FCS) A.2.c.6 says "The use of any crankshaft of the stroke specified in the homologation forms for the engine." is legal.
The homologation form for the BDD (dated May 7, 1981 (!!)) says the stroke is 77.6 mm (3.056 in.).
What am I missing here?

[Stan Clayton]

I've been wondering how a short-stroke Cosworth (or Toyota if someone wanted to build one) is SCCA legal. The Formula Car Spec (FCS) A.2.c.6 says "The use of any crankshaft of the stroke specified in the homologation forms for the engine." is legal. The homologation form for the BDD (dated May 7, 1981 (!!)) says the stroke is 77.6 mm (3.056 in.). What am I missing here?

You aren't missing anything, Paul. Short-stroking engines is not legal in FA, though it is the norm in CSR (where the bore/stroke are open so long as the max displacement is not exceeded).

Note to Bill: Both times I took my RT-41 to the Runoffs (where Rennie got a 3rd and a 1st), the bore and stroke were carefully measured to ensure GCR compliance.

[bill gillespie]

stan and paul,
o.k.......i'm wide awake now! thank you for the education, i can assure you that neither steve, nor i, will ever compete with an illegal car. steve would not even consider ti rods because of ferrous material requirements..........unlike some current toyota club engines.
a victory with an illegal engine is hollow......whether detected or not. i'll put my bifocals back on and hesd back to the rule book.
best regards,
bill

[Graham Rankin]

Well I guess now is timely for my 2 cents ! Not strictly an FA/Mazda response, more of related regional FS topic, so I'm more than willing to create a new thread if needed.
Agreed, Charles is correct that the Staffs and the smaller Hewland are not really man enough for the job beyond the 240HP or so range.
We decided to go the FS route with the Swift primarily because the 014 uses the SG3 gearbox.It's rated at 300HP and 195lbft for torque.Admittedly the FT torque rating is higher at 220lbf, but our engine is more in the 190 range.So at the end of the day, we will likely be at the top end of the range also.
Our whole concept though is driven around a more cost effective engine package in terms of rebuild costs and duration.Initial engine cost for that kind of power are less than the Toyota,and with 1200 miles between rebuilds and about 1/2 the rebuild cost,it seems to make for a half decent proposition. The downside of course is the conversion cost and that you are in FS not in FA.If anyone's interested feel free to contact me directly.

graham.rankin@philips.com

[Dan Kennison]

graham:


I think you hit it on the head with one slight change. I have been looking at engine options for the same reason as everyone else. I would like to do in FA, what the Z-tech did for F2000. In F2000 the engine is no longer a factor. You can easily get 2 -3 seasons out of it.

If you were to de-tune your project engine to 250hp you would definately save the gearbox and probably get a ton of milage out of the motor. You already stated that the rebuil costs would be low(er). You are going to run with FA anyway and 250 is a good balance between Pro and club motors.

Isn't that the option that would work best.

Dan Kennison

[FCYTravis]

Agreed, Dan.

Naturally-aspirated four-cylinder engines are being sold on the street with 240 hp - and these cars have 30,000 mile warranties! There's no reason Atlantics should have to rebuild the engines every 700 miles for the same output.

[Ted and Nancy]

Stan I think you need to check the facts prior to making a flat statement that the big bore short stroke BD engine is not leagle. The GCR states that the bore and storke must conform to the stroke in the homologation forms. The BD series has never had a homologation form with SCCA as it was grandfathered in prior to requiring homologation. This has been checked with SCCA several times over the years.

[Charles Warner]

"The homologation form for the BDD (dated May 7, 1981 (!!)) says the stroke is 77.6 mm (3.056 in.)."

Ted, are you referring to another homologation form or situation? Might be critical to some of us.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan I think you need to check the facts prior to making a flat statement that the big bore short stroke BD engine is not leagle. The GCR states that the bore and storke must conform to the stroke in the homologation forms. The BD series has never had a homologation form with SCCA as it was grandfathered in prior to requiring homologation. This has been checked with SCCA several times over the years.

Ted, what "facts" do you consider me to have mis-stated? Here are the facts I stated.

Fact: It's illegal to short-stroke an engine in FA (see reference above).

Fact: My engine's bore and stroke were explicitly checked at the '02 and '03 Runoffs.

Facts unstated by me include the homologated stroke of the BD engine. You say that there is an exemption for the BD. If you know of one in writing, please share it with the rest of us. After Rennie came third at the '02 Runoffs Steve Jennings approached me about a short-stroke BD. I was quite interested in this engine, but after checking with Denver and being told that there was no provision other than what's in the GCR (along with other reasons) I decided to forego the engine.

I don't think a short-stroke BD is legal in FA. I would love to be proved wrong, but I need to see it in writing from the Club.

Regards, Stan

[Ted and Nancy]

Charles
That is true for the BDD but there are none for the other 1600 cc "BD series engines. This includes the BDA engine which was first used in a Rally car. The current GCR refers to the "BD series" because there were so many 1600cc BD's
Stan as much as say s that Nancy and I are running a cheater motor and I resent that. He was told that we were running a big bore short stroke in our DB4 at the DSR christmass party in 2004. He had even tried to obtain one for his son to use at the runoff's. Now it's not legal??
In our 30+ years in SCCA Nancy and I have NEVER RUN A CHEATER MOTOR PERIOD.

[Charles Warner]

Ok guys,

I'm on my third G&T and we don't need to go all higgledy-piggledy here. I don't believe anyone is saying or implying you are running an illegal motor Ted. (And, you can NOT rely on anything from a Christmas party - that's a law!)

I guess we are delving into definitions and sea-lawyer territory here. From my info, the BDA was originally a belt drive version of the FVA using the tall Kent block that put out about 120 hp. Then the BDD was the "definitive" atlantic engine (200 hp). The next time the BD series applies to the atlantics is the BDM which is the big valve, injected BDD (225 hp). Next we have the BDN which is the spec sealed motor as specified for the Canadian Atlantic series (only about 210 hp).

However, if we extrapolate that the BDA has grown and been developed into an alternate to the BDD as an atlantic engine (using the tall Kent block?), then I guess the homolgation issue is moot. It appears we have two sources that have checked with the powers-that-be in honest attempts at clarifying specific rules and both sources have received diametrically opposing answers. (Why am I not surprised?) It looks as if the main question is "are the BD series engines homoogated or just the BDD?" What say one of youse guys proffer that question to Kansas? (Stan has already raised the question on the Advisory Board board, BTW.)

Has anyone ever tried Juniper Green Gin? Mahvelous.

[Steve Jennings]

And, he hasn't even heard about your 18.4 pound crank for the runnoffs.

Steve Jennings

[Charles Warner]

Steve,

Do you have ANY idea how many ways that could be taken?????

[Ted and Nancy]

Charles
Not to mention the BDR road version of the BD series. I can't find it just now but there was a big bore short stroke version just seen in england and used for hill climbs a BD???????? I think I will homologate a new one a BDTED.