March 19F... good bad, ugly???

[Churchill]

ok, its not ugly, but I had an opportunity to buy a complete running car last summer, that I think may still be available (also passed a Forsgrini Mk2 that was WAY out of my pricerange).

basically, I'm not looking to win, just get around the track in one piece and learn to race. anything particularly good/bad about the car, the fiberglass was a little tired, but a long way from "gone" and the mechanicals seemed good and intact. I don't recall much about the motor, but the car was mid-pack in the monoposto group at BRIC last summer IIRC.

thoughts?

[Larry]

The main question to ask is where will you buy replacement parts? You will eventually need a wishbone, nose or something (hopefully not a rear upright). Where can you buy one, or will you need to have it fabricated. Most of the cars have sources for parts. I wouldn't have a clue where to look for parts for a March.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Churchill]

wow, thanks... never looked at it that way. I just assumed I would have my brother make molds for all the fiberglass before we ever tracked it (its nice to have family in that business), but I don't know anyone good enough as a fabricator to make control-arms or anything for this type of application...

good good point.......

so, which makes HAVE readily available replacements... and which of those models are actually attainable price-wise...

[bob darcey]

Agree with Larry on that. I wouldn't know where to find parts for a Forsgrini, either.

No doubt I will get some disagreement on this, but here's what I'd recommend to Churchill as the "top five" vintage FF's, roughly in the order listed:

Titan Mk6: Most desirable (?), fast, light, reasonable parts avbailability and a great support network; all this is reflected in their market price. Probably the most successful car in vintage racing.

Merlyn, various models: original manufacturer still produces replacement parts; very successful, good network. The Mk 11 may be the prettiest vintage FF.

Winkleman WDF-1,2,3: Very good cars; not a exactly a "household word" in motorsports, so good values can be had; handling is generally on par with the Titans.

Lola T-200,202,204: short wheelbase (83") cars, not particularly light but good handling; uprights & stub axles are "specials" but available; good support network; great name recognition.

Caldwell D9: similar to Wink's (both seem Brabham-inspired); can't advise on parts availability, but they are good handling cars.

Notice that I have not included any Loti in the list; the 51's and 61's take a whole lort of re-engineering to be in the front pack; the 69's are touted as the "best" FF, but few humans can afford them; ditto ADF's. Probably piss off a lot of people with that opinion, but it's just my .02 cents.

[marchracer]

Wishbones are available from Pat Prince. Many of the other parts are generic (ie Spitfire uprights, Imp axels, etc.), as is common with most vintage FFs. I just finished restoring a March FF which came to me in several boxes, with quite a few missing pieces. I was able to source everything I needed.

[Churchill]

hey huge thanks man... I am price-restricted, and FYI the Forsgrini is a Lotus rip-off IIRC.

as for the Lolas.... there's a long wheelbase T-200 that has my attention, any reason to stay away from it, my brother is 6-4, and he races with me... (I've said that how many times now).

I'm not a big fan of the Lola appearance wise, but it also may just be the paint that's killing me on murrays car.

and marchracer, thanks for the info on the parts... where do you guys BUY parts, or do I need to find a scrap-yard that has Imp axles and spitfire uprights??? (there are none out here, I promise!....unless I can find my dad's old spitfire, it never did run!)

huge thanks guys, this is sooo much better.

I should also be more clear, when I ask "where to get parts" I'm hoping for someone to post a link to "the Vintage FF warehouse" or somesuch... the BMWs have spoiled me!

[marchracer]

I'm not sure if you are talking about the same car or not, but in our march ff (the one for sale) I was 4th at the BRIC last year at RA out of 25 or so fords, and somewhere between 10-15th overall out of almost 50 cars. It is a very competitive car within monoposto in my opinion.

Charles Livingston, or son of marchracer

[Churchill]

it may have finished that high... I just didn't SEE it.... (I think we had to bail early on sunday and I missed group 4).

the car shown below is the one I remember....

[bob darcey]

Churchill: The "long wheelbase" T-200 is a modification that may have been done by Haas, who was the U.S. importer. There was a car in the Denver area that was a "stretch" chassis, and it worked really well; that car was purported to have been "stretched" by Haas. If done correctly, I wouldn't consider it a negative. The old Lola's are pretty well supported: TW Mouldings has all the body moulds; Pat Prince has jigs for all the suspensions tubing pieces, and he can make (so I hear) the front uprights; Wayne Mitchell (www.dogrings.com) makes the cast rear uprights; Wayne and Three Dog make the stub axles. The brake rotors are not available in a one-piece configuration, but people can make a two-piece top hat and disc. The other hard-to-find item is the steering rack, which is a modified something or other. No one seems to know.

I think the T-200 is a beautiful car, which is why I drive one. If you prefer more of a "cigar shape", the earlier Winks, Merlyns and Caldwells may be more to your liking.

[marchracer]

it may have finished that high... I just didn't SEE it.... (I think we had to bail early on sunday and I missed group 4).

the car shown below is the one I remember....

Same car, the guy in it even looks like me!

[Bud Byrnes]

Wayne Mitchell at www.Dogrings.com was the U.S. builder of March FF cars. He is a great guy very knowledgable and helpful. He can probably help you.

Bud

[Jonathan Hirst]

Marchs are a well built and (to my tastes) a good looking car. Any clarification as to how fast they go then look who Marchracer (or the son of..) is gridded ahead of in the attachment. Kevin Smiths yellow and green Titan is a (really) good benchmark for a quick Vintage Ford.

As far as parts availability - there are sources - many of which have been mentioned for March specific suspension. For more common parts / brake pads / consumables /engine and gearbox parts then there are many great suppliers to choose from including some of this forums sponsors.

Bottom line - if you would feel more comfortable in your purchse knowing that there is a broad network of enthusiasts/owners clubs with spare parts on the shelf for your car then try to concentrate your search efforts to the "supported" chassis mentioned elsewhere on this thread.

If you do not have a local fabricator then maybe this is the best option to give you piece of mind?

jon

[Churchill]

again, many thanks guys, I don't have much time to follow up any of this stuff today, but will get to it sometime this week...

[Larry]

There are several people that can fabricate excellent wishbones (Pat Prince comes to mind). They just aren't that difficult--or expensive. I judge car availability by rear uprights. Some of the cars had cast uprights, while others had fabricated. The rear upright is likely the most expensive non-generic component on the car, and fortunately you don't need one very often. I have seen instances of cars where there were no uprights available and a good fabricator quoted $900 and 3-4 months to produce one.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Churchill]

I think someone said that the Lola T-200 uprights were still available from someone (and the fronts are a triumph IIRC).... so that catapults Murray's car to the front of the standings...

[bob darcey]

No, the Lola front uprights are not the Triumph units, they are "specials", but Pat Prince can fabricate them. Replacement rear uprights are being cast by Wayne Mitchell.

[Churchill]

sorry.... still the newguy.....

[Comp89]

In my humble opinion here are some reasons why Murray's car is a good deal for someone new who wants to go Vintage racing:
- It is complete and ready to race (unless I missed something);
- His wife ran it for a couple seasons therefore the bugs should be sorted out;
- He owns & races a similar car therefore if you need advices, parts suppliers or set-up tricks, he will be only an email/phone call away. Mind you set-up tricks may be harder to get if you start/finish in front of him.

[Frank C]

Echoing Jean-Guy's thoughts, Scott (Marchracer) has two March FFs plus various March S2s that he and son of Marchracer (really not a horror story) have run. I think Scott is a very experienced March expert and would be quite willing to share his expertise. I have known Scott and Charles quite a while and Scott's cars always are clean and well-prepared. I visited Scott's shop just before Christmas and was impressed.
- Frank C

[Rob_ert]

"Winkleman WDF-1,2,3: Very good cars; not a exactly a "household word" in motorsports, so good values can be had; handling is generally on par with the Titans.
Caldwell D9: similar to Wink's (both seem Brabham-inspired); can't advise on parts availability, but they are good handling cars."

I believe your rite about Brabham-inspired. In the model designation # used for Winks, the "W" in WDF stands for Len Whimhurst who worked for Brabham (and Lola) before joining with Hugh Dibley, the "D", and supposedly the Patron of Palliser Racing Design who built them. Dibley raced CanAm cars in the sixties. He was a BOAC pilot who "flew" a Lola T70 inverted (a brief flight!) at St jovite after launching it off the back straight "hump" at 150+ mph! The "F" of course stands for Ford as they also built F3, FAtl (which won the first Euro Championship) FB, FSV and sundry other cars before going the way of the Dodo a la Reynard.

[DOC]

Info in no particular order:

The party line from Lincolnshire (Haas) "We never built or imported any long wheelbase T-200 series FF's."

Neil Fowler has been winning virtually all the historic FF races in the UK for the last 4 years in 200 series Lolas. However, having recently personally inspected the entire grid, he is the ONLY one running gas shocks and BTW, they aren't Penskes. In addition, Fowler Goodwin Motorsports have reportedly used a top designer to redo the front suspension geometry. This is clearly in violation of UK rules, if true. I can't confirm or deny this very persistent rumor. However, Fowler is also at the front when he occasionally has to run his Merlyn Mk20.

Purchase: VERY few vintage FF's are sold that don't need a huge infusion of parts and labor to bring them up to top shape. Market prices are down significantly from a few years ago. My advice if you want to run safely and relatively economically is to purchase by value. I know a fellow who claims to have just picked up a Titan Mk6A in good shape for $5000. That was an easy decision. He can spend $15,000 on it and probably not lose anything at sale.

So what about a March? I think they are good cars, but no one has ever done much with them, so they don't command a high price. However, there may be fewer out there than Lotus 69's and the name is pretty famous. If a couple people go out and win a bunch of vintage FF races with Marches, they could appreciate more than any other car out there. So, March is my vintage FF "longshot" for potential appreciation. However, there is a high likelihood that $10,000 spent on restoration will not be recovered.

When these cars were new, they were just part of the cost of going racing. Noone ever thought of them as an investment. However, now, if you are careful with your purchase and "rehab" you can get your money back when you sell.

So, the less popular cars are the more economically "dangerous" ones because when you get going, it's often hard to reign yourself on spending once you get started.

DC

[Comp89]

Did you look at http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/ffs.htm

[Churchill]

wow, lots of continuted discussion, thanks, the Lola is the current front-runner, but I'm still at least a month from anything. this isn't an investment, its a money-pit, a toy. The last thing I need is something that no one knows anything about...

to that end, the Lola is looking good still. and I will investigate the WDF and other "odd" makes, but really, what I'm most after, is a car that I can write ONE CHECK for, and then just show up to race (not feasable, I know, but the closer to that ideal, the better. I don't see the March in that light, especially for the same money as athe lola, and my racing partner won't fit in the march...

[Churchill]

and now, to completely contradict everything I've just said.......

what about this???? http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/ot...57280736pp.htm

from teh appearance, mostly cosmetic and consumables.... easy stuff to spend on....

[racer27]

A couple of Titians have run with our club competitivly. When restored they are awsome looking cars.

Question: Why are you limiting your seach to vintage? You can get a competitive CF for 1/2 the money and not be too annoyed if you have to write it off.

To me, a racecar needs to be treated as a consumable. One has to accept that regardless of how careful you are, you are putting it at risk everytime you turn a wheel. As my crew chief says, "If you can't afford to push it off a cliff, then you should not be racing it".

I've known at least 2 drivers who have gone from Vintage to CF primerly for the 2 reasons stated below:

1. Ability to race closer and harder due to less finicial risk associated with an incident

2. The CF's are percieved to be marginially safer (Roll hoops height, wider tires. etc).

[Churchill]

why not, CF and why Vintage...

been over this... but 1) I'm not interested in racing closer and harder, the racing itself is more than enough for me to handle. 2) atmosphere, and opportunity, the rest of the racing that I'm involved with is all vintage, so this makes it a little easier to participate. I also just love the feel of the vintage weekends, its my vacation, my time away from life, and I want to spend it with cars older than I am... just the way I am. 3) esthetic, something about them calls to me, their look, sound, feel. it is absolutely mind-boggling to me. 4) passion. sometimes you just get an itch that you've got to scratch, and there's only one way to scratch it. this IS that itch. I've wanted to race my whole bloody life, but I can't afford the risk of racing closer and faster and harder, and I can't afford the TIME involved in that either. I want to be able to pull the car out in the spring, shake it down at our local track on a lapping day, and not be concerned with having "the right setup for this and that...." set it up once, for one track, and leave it.

that track? Road America. only real racing track inside a days drive. and I LOVE Elkhart lake.

If I'd started in carts and moved on to FFs and worked my way into faster and faster machinery, it would be one thing, but I'm 26 and have never driven and open-wheel car. a good FF will last me my lifetime, IMO, and will keep the smile on my face long after I've tackled faster and more intense rides....

[DOC]

Well, you asked. This car has been listed for quite some time. If it had been offered for $6000, someone would have bought it by now. To be fair, I've never viewed the car in the flesh, but the photos have the look of a car that needs EVERYTHING. My guess is that the price of a cost-conscious engine/gearbox rebuild, plus just the parts it will need, chassis repairs, paint, coachwork, etc, etc. will easily exceed $10,000. And that's not counting a LOT of your own labor, assuming you are capable. Delivered to a shop that specializes in Titans with instructions to make it race ready, the bill would easily approach or even exceed $20,000. At that point, if you had to sell, you might not be able to get much over $15,000. Win some races, take your time for the right person to appear, you could possibly get quite a bit more.

Several people have suggested Club Ford. At least there, you have a shot at buying a useable car for no more than $10,000.

DC

[LolaT440]

I can not stress the fact to buy a done running car. I broke the FF1600 website rule "A running car for sale, that does not currently run..." is not a running car. 2nd. Absolutely buy the car in the best condition. That Titan is junk. Figure on replacing everything. My Merlyn 17 looked like that, and it was a major job, but I bought it for 4k.

My CF was 7K. I decided to tear it down rather than run it as is. I should have just spent the 15K and had no labor into it because that is what it is going to cost. However, for my 15 I am going to have a fresh car.

Restoring a vintage car to vintage is costly. It takes just as much time and effort to build a BT29 as it does a Titan MK 6. Sure the engine is more expensive, but at least you just might get your money back. More likely not.

A good thing would be a buyers guide. For instance, the engine builder asked how old are the exhaust valves? I don't know, so best replace them. Next time I want to know , when were the hydraulics last rebuilt? Clutch, Bobbin bushing, rotors ever replaced. What type of bolts are in the car? Home Depot or Mil Spec? Rust or fresh bolts? Nothing beats a clean well cared for car.

[Churchill]

thanks for the continued input guys, actually might have a little time to work on this over the next few days.

have a pair of cars that I'm still thinking about.... and they are both vintage.... sorry CF guys.... no place to run a CF at BRIC.

[jgaither]

Churchill:

Did you look at the blue Crossle on the race-cars.com site? I thought it was by far the best one on that site. I corresponded with the owner and tried to make a trade with my vintage FV, but he just wanted the cash. A very nice car. And parts should be easy to come by.

JG

BTW, Club Fords look appealing, are less expensive and can be raced at most any vintage event, so don't rule them out. But - not nearly as many folks to play with at a typical event. If you like company, stick with vintage FF. If you like a lot of company, get a vintage S2.

[Jonathan Hirst]

I did my driving school in that Crossle! Borrowed it from John D.

It has had a few miles since (15 years ago) but it is still as pretty - back to the same colour too!
My Dulon and that Crossle shared a 24' trailer back in the day when Adam Burnett and I were road tripping to races all over the North East.

Thanks for the memories.

It is a shame it hasn't sold - it was a well put together car the last time I saw it.

[Jim Johnson]

I've been running a March 729 for three years now and it is a unique car. I went through the total restoration process and had to find suppliers for virtually everything on the car. Wayne Mitchell has a set of molds for the nose and upper cockpit surround. Others above have noted Pat Prince as a source of suspension parts. Wayne does an axle modification that replaces the Imp stub axles on the rear end. Having restored the car, I'd certainly think about buying one complete in the future.

The one Marchracer has for sale I believe used to belong to Jeff Johnson and is quite fast.

A shot of my car at the Portland Historics can be seen on www.marchives.com. Click on chassis types, then bring up 729. I'm in the yellow car. There weren't that many of these cars made, so if you do decide to go with the March chassis, you will be a member of a rather unique club.

A shot of Jeff's old car from Lee Chapman Racing's website can be found at:

http://www.leechapmanracing.com/images2/MarchFF-PM.jpg


Jim Johnson

[DOC]

Hi Jim,

Could you enable your email in your profile? Alternatively, could you email me by clicking on my name and accessing mine? (I've learned that listing one's address in the body of postings leads to "capture" by "web crawling" software and endless "spam".

Thanks,

DC