Any clubs not allow uprated engines?

I have a Cortina-engined Elden that's very orginal. I want to run a car with an uprated motor, so the decision I have to make is to (1) do a major engine rebuild, or (2) sell the car in its present state (because someone make want a true "period" car) and then just buy a whole new car with an uprated motor.

So my question is: is there a constituency out there that would want a Cortina-powered car? Do any of the clubs not allow the uprated motor? IS there an Elden museum out there somewhere? (not including Paul Pfanner's garage...)

Details of my car are as follows: strong-running, rebuilt (w/ low-time) Cortina motor. Car still has original (rebuilt) Smith gauges including the chronometric tach. Engine has very cool period aluminum "Rowland" valve cover & velocity stack. Bodywork sports custom-made die cut period-copy sponsor stickers (Champion, Castrol, the Mobile flying horse, and others). In other words, a uniquely period-correct FF. Hell, it even has the fiberglass fuel tank! And I also have the original wheels shod with a set of now hard-as-stone period-correct Firestone tires!

Any peanut gallery takes on the general pros and cons of the Elden chassis are welcome too,. just in case I buy a different car. Any Hawke or March FF fans out there?

To the Elden's credit, it provided me with two fantastic weekends at the track last month, running my first & second-ever auto races at Cal Speedway with HSR and VARA.

I think you'll find that most if not all clubs will allow you to run an uprated engine in your car. That being said, may I offer some advice based on personal experience?

As a novice, I built my car with a Cortina motor and raced it that way for the first 3 years. I felt I needed track time more than I needed horsepower. Once I learned to set the car up and drive it, I treated myself to an uprated engine. I've noticed that most of our new drivers don't utilize everything the car can give for the first couple of years unless they are unusually talented.

You say you are two races into your vintage racing career and have a strong running Cortina engine. I'd suggest you run it until it needs to be rebuilt, then get the uprated. Sounds like you have a great car with the Elden.

I personally prefer my March 729:

http://www.picsfixd.com/mini-IMG_0896.JPG

It's unique and easy to drive, and once I learned to drive it, runs with the lead pack.

Jim

Great advice. As long as it's running well, focus on driving skills and car set up. Perfecting those skills will absolutely swamp any advantage of going "uprated."

It's very admirable to keep the car original. That is something quite unique. Don't be afraid to honor that notion. But that said, I sure wouldn't worry about going to uprated some day. It's a bolt in deal not requiring you to bastardize the car in any way. So, when it's time, just save the old Cortina and it can be kept "with the car" if you feel (or any buyer) that it's that important. Here, you can have your cake and eat it too.

And if you need any Cortina parts, John Mihalich (RMVR's newsletter editor, reachable at "editor at rmvr dot com") probably has the world's largest collection of Cortina engine stuff. If he ain't got it, your probably can't get it.

I know of no vintage clubs that would disallow uprated engines. So, there's no audience, per se, that would really really insist on a Cortina power plant.

Thanks for (1) treading through my long-winded post and (2) your advice.

I understand the whole "learn to to drive the car before you spend the money on the horsepower" thing, really, I do! The last thing I am thinking is that I am just an Ivey engine away from podium immortality. Ihhave a long way to go in both skill development and chassis set-up. It's just that with both VARA and HSR-West, I'm not even able to stay in sight of the end-pack guys - AND I'm getting passed on the loooonnnggg banked straightaway at Fontana like I'm standing still (my gearing good). I'm just giving up too much horsepower. And unfortunatley, my two main tracks will be Willow Springs and Fontana; two of the fastest tracks around. Perhaps on a shorter, slower track, it wouldn't be as pronounced a disadvantage.

It puts me running by myself most of the time, which is not only a little dull (for me at least), but I feel I'd be learning a lot more if I could just be in a cluster - any cluster (assuming that the even the slower guys at least know where they're supposed to be on the track even if they're not going fast).

Not only am I the only Cortina motor, but I swear that 80% of them have Ivy motors as well.

So it appears to me that the answer is to do the engine at some point; selling the Elden with the Cortina sounds like an exercise in futility.

Ethics question: Do you think the seller was obilgated to fully explain the whole Cortina/Uprated issue with me? (If he had, I would not have bought the car.)

It is my feeling that in your case it's not a Cortina/Uprated issue. It may simply be a good/weak motor issue. Is a seller obliged to say it's a weak engine (Cortina or otherwise)? Good question. Buying a race car is ALWAYS a buyer beware proposition. Condition of motors is ALWAYS subjective. "Runs fine" may be a seller's genuine opinion. But the buyer may find "It's a piece of crap." Such is life when buying a race car.

Not sure there's much than can be said beyond that. Freshening up a weak motor (Cortina or Uprated) can always pay power dividends. No doubt freshing up your Cortina will be much more cost effective than sourcing a whole new uprated engine.

As a post script. in theory a well-prepared Cortina is supposed to be at parity with an uprated engine (higher allowed compression ratio, etc.). In practice, they aren't. Just look around. Doesn't work that way. But I'd venture that a well-prepared "strong" (and legal) Cortina shouldn't be at a huge disadvantage. Here again Driver and Car Prep are WAY more important. The best Cortina will probably never run with the big dogs with Ivey. But heck. Few of us can run with the big dogs anyway, uprated or not. It's that old Driver/Car Prep/Seat time thing again. Part of the reason is that the technology and knowledge base to develop the Cortina just isn't there because there are so few left.

Don't give up on the Cortina motor. As Jim and Bob have stated, the big dogs have the best of everything including driver skill and VARA and HSR have the fastest of the fast. I had a home built Cortina that didn't want to rev over 5000 rpm. While watching the fast cars glide by on the straightaway, I found myself learning about entry and exit speeds in the corners. My lap times were only 2 seconds a lap slower than my old Elden with an uprated motor. Now five years later. I am back in the Elden running a second or two behind Jim with the same homebuilt uprated motor I built in 2000. The Elden is competitive with other Ivey powered cars in SOVREN. It is really fun coming off of T8 in Seattle and drafting a 110+ hp car down the straightaway. Now add to that to my 100# weight penalty in my 6'2" body and I am having a blast!!. Despite what people will say, the Elden can be driven very quickly. Bob Earl went to the SCCA runoffs in his Elden in 1973 only to take delivery on the new ADF at the runoffs in which he proceeded to win. The Elden will take a larger driver like myself. It is strong as hell. Doesn't destroy rodends, bearings etc. And my car ended up being one of the lightest cars in SOVREN. Your fuel cell, by the way, is not fiberglass. It is fiberglass over aluminum. Any questions you have about the Elden I would be glad to answer by e-mail. By the way, I have molds for the original boat tail bodywork (nose, cowl and side panels). Your body work looks like some highly modified Falconer bodywork.

AL Murray
oldcarsmmc@aol.com

PS. We have one Cortina powered Macon that is very fast and on a good day will run right with Jim in his March. That was the same motor that wouldn't go over 5000 rpm!!!!

I ran a customer car in a Crossle 40F that had a Cortina (don't ask how it got one as he bought it that way!).

For a time, it held the CF lap record at Gateway International in St, Louis. GIR is a roval but a very fast one, with good CF's averaging mid 90 mph lap speeds. My customer used the torque advantage, some interesting gearing and his ability to carry speed to his advatage.
We found that a looooooooong exhaust helped top end, and as I recall the pipe ran a full 33 inches behind the centerline of the rear axle. I'm pretty sure that's not legal in SCCA any longer but it may be in various vintage clubs.

It was a very reliable tough little motor that was still running when he sold it to move up.

Good luck!

Someone who started his semi-pro race career in an Elden Mk 8 (my car!) was none other than Danny Sullivan in England.

PS - another question: how diffrerent will gearing be for Cortina vs. an Uprated? The gearing I ran at Fontana was very close to what the Ivey Uprated contingent were using...

(I also realize that gearing is a fuction of someone's driving style/ability as well)

I can bet you a million that a good driver driving a clapped out cortina motored CF could beat me in a better prepared uprated car. There are not a lot of guys in vintage who run the car at the limit.

I'd put the uprated money into things like shocks and other car prep.

Think anybody'd notice if I threw a 2.0 liter motor in there? (the way I'm driving, probably not!)

I hadn't looked at this thread for a while and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who took the time to offer me advice. The generosity that I have experienced in my rookie year has been amazing - from fellow racers to club officials to corner workers to total strangers on ApexSpeed, it really is something.

I recently told my cousin, a major gearhead who I am trying to get to start racing, that she'll "come for the racing and stay for the community".... pretty good line if I do say so myself.

Here's to a great 2008 season everybody!

Pen

So what did you end up doing about the motor - Rebuild the Cortina or get an uprated motor?

BTW, when I was learning to drive an FF, I typically took the gearing suggestions and dropped down a gear for 1st rhough 4th because I knew I would be slower into the turn, slower through the turn and slower out of the turn!

Since the Cortina engine seemd to be pretty strong (for a Cortina engine), I just left it alone. I got sidetracked with a sports racer project so I couldn't afford to buy an uprated engine even I wanted to! (and the idea of selling the Elden and buying a different car with an uprated seems unlikely, because no one wants a Cortina engine and no one seems to be too interested in an Elden, either!)

That's great advice about gearing - I have received a lot of very generous advice on gearing, lines, what gear to be in, ride height, shock settings, etc, but this advice is given to me in the context of me being as fast and talented as the advisor (which is not the case). So how do you define "drop down a gear"? What is the numerical translation? If the the recommended gearing for Laguna Seca, for instance is 18/33, 20/30, 22/28, and 24/28, what would you suggest I use? I'm not versed yet in the gearing calculations (is there a huge difference between an 18/33 and a 17/34, etc.), so your counsel is appreciated.

I had the idea that I would gear my car to use the three top gears only (and just use first for launch) for a particular race, the concept being that the less I had to worry about shifting, the more I could concentrate on driving - worked great - I cut 6 seconds off my time! Now this is not something anyone with any experience would ever do, because they can squeeze every last advantage out of each gear, but for me it worked great.

Thanks so much,

Pen

Pen, you have a PM

When I started, I had no prior racing experience, other than a few autocrosses. I knew I wanted to do this but really had no concept of what was involved in driving an open wheel car fast. I had prepared a few open wheel vintage, Can-Am and a top-flight SCCA GT-3 car so I wasn't worried about putting the thing together.

First off, I would bet that you would have gained just as much, if not more, if you had used all 4 gears. But to answer your questions, go here:
http://www.ratiochart.com/index2.cfm
and Generate a Chart with Selected Gear Ratios, selecting all your own ratios. When it comes time to change gears, go to your list and suggestions and pick the gear to the left of the one suggested!

While this will get you a little faster in acceleration, it won't help much in the turns. If I had it to do over again, I would have gotten a Driver Coach a lot sooner. While I was in Cal Club, I got Tom Rust to help me a few times and suddenly, I looked really fast and even set a couple of lap records! Since moving East, I've used James Lee a few times and the difference is dramatic!

Thanks Gary, Darryl...

Great advice. I definately want to go the driver training route; there is so much for me to learn. There are some really talented people in the vintage clubs who offer this (including one of the fastest FF racers). If I was out your way, Gary, I'd give Peter Krause a call, he's supposed to be great (and a former Lola 492 driver, one of my favorite cars).

I've had driving instructors in a street car (with a passenger seat) on a couple track days, I guess it's a little trickier in a single seat car.

That gearing chart is pretty.....thorough; I'll understand it in about two years....

At least I now know how to change the gearsets now - here's a big tip: don't lose that bottom washer on the layshaft - trust me on this one...