Help finding an Outboard Drive Shaft

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11.22.23, 2:29 AM
APBos

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Help finding an Outboard Drive Shaft

I am trying to source 2 outboard drive shafts for my project. Here is a dimensional drawing of the shaft
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109236&stc=1
5.5 inches Spicer 1” 22 spline. The chassis came with with some U Joint drive shafts similar to an Elva mk8 shaft, but they will not work on the fabricated uprights and it seems I must find them to use the uprights with CV joints. I’ e got to think they are of the shelf, but from what car?

Thank you
Paul
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109237&stc=1
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109238&stc=1
11.23.23, 4:03 AM
tlracer

I might be missing something here, but the upper drawing looks like a Hewland (or similar) gearbox output shaft?

The axle in the lower drawing appears to have an integral CV joint, a bit like the VW Golf units commonly used on smaller race cars.
11.23.23, 11:05 AM
APBos

Bingo!
I need to get the measurements for the mk9 Hewland 12 hole drive shafts, but it sure looks similar. Norm Hart was an engineer and maybe this was an exercise in being complete and he modeled those on the blue prints and planned to use VW CV’s on the uprights.
Everything modeled on the same blueprint sheet. He was going to use a Honda S800 engine so the HP range would fit those parts.
Thank you for your keen eye.
Regards
Paul
11.23.23, 1:03 PM
scorp997

The outer axles I bet are VW Type 1, 3 or 4 (not type 2). Bearings may need adapter rings if the ID is larger than the shaft - and make sure you have the spacer between the bearings. Wheel flange could be sourced from a type 3 (make sure they are German, not Brazilian) or cut down a Porsche 924 rear drum.

not sure why you need the “12 hole Hewland” shafts, only 6 are used and the CV hole spacing is the same as the outer stub.
11.23.23, 4:12 PM
APBos

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorp997

The outer axles I bet are VW Type 1, 3 or 4 (not type 2). Bearings may need adapter rings if the ID is larger than the shaft - and make sure you have the spacer between the bearings. Wheel flange could be sourced from a type 3 (make sure they are German, not Brazilian) or cut down a Porsche 924 rear drum.

not sure why you need the “12 hole Hewland” shafts, only 6 are used and the CV hole spacing is the same as the outer stub.

I did a quick search for a Hewland mk9 drive shaft an came upon a 12 hole shaft that matched what I was looking for. It would make sense it would be a 6 hole shafts. https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109247&stc=1 The 68 to 79 bug and Super Beetle stub axle seems on the face of it correct. I just have to get some measurements. I have 4 sets of bearings that are correct for the outer dimension of the upright. Now to see if they match the VW stub axle!

Thanks again!
Paul
11.23.23, 4:24 PM
APBos

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Found a picture of this in my collection of pictures of the bits that came with the chassis. VW rear axle hub?
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109248&stc=1
11.23.23, 6:49 PM
tlracer

Comparing that part to the section drawing, it looks like the drive flange. It's been redrilled from 4 to 6 holes.
11.23.23, 8:13 PM
APBos

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlracer

Comparing that part to the section drawing, it looks like the drive flange. It's been redrilled from 4 to 6 holes.

Correct. The car uses Elva mk7/8 suspension components and came with 4 and 6 lug rims. Norm had a mk3 Elva and it looks like he collected parts from a mk7/8 and used a LeGrand mk18 body and designed a chassis “inspired” by the mk18. His design is definitely stronger with the intention of using a Honda S800 engine that he raced and was the West Coast guru in building.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109249&stc=1
11.24.23, 12:26 AM
scorp997

Bug axles are pretty long, and I believe the OD is 25mm (or was it 24?). I have a bad one in the garage that I was using for a mockup on my old car. I bought a pair of ‘66/67 Porsche 911/912 SWB axles for my project. They are dimensionally the same (flange/spline/OD) but are about 1-1/2” shorter in length AND have the smooth machined surface the entire length, unlike the Bug. I still have them and may be for sale - not nearly as cheap as VW parts though.

it is possible that this was designed to use the Rabbit/Golf front stub axles which are shorter still.. what year was this designed? That may help narrow down the parts available at that time.
11.24.23, 1:52 AM
APBos

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The last date on the blueprint is 1981. The date on the upright is 1979. I hope you guys will for give my ignorance on the rear suspension, this is my first car with CV joints. Since the unfinished car is in bits, we will need to do a little bit of interpretation of the plans. The shaft length on the blueprints appears to be 15.31 inches. I will try to get a better picture of the plans tomorrow, but here is what I have on my phone.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109250&stc=1
11.24.23, 3:53 AM
tlracer

I managed to come up with some details on the shaft you posted a picture of, which seems to be VW p/n. 211-501-265.

Cross-reference on bearings gave me 6207-C3, which is 72mm OD x 35mm ID x 17mm depth. Do those measurements equate to the bearings you have?
(NB. The bearings should be marked on the edge of the outer race with reference number)

Assuming this is all on the right track, there's a page in the link below with some assembly stuff, part numbers, etc. that might help:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vi...c.php?t=652962

Added: Not sure if this helps at all, but the driveshaft measurement you have at 15.31" is 389mm. This is the same as the left-side driveshaft for a VW Samba automatic. You would need to check the number of splines on CV joint and shaft and location (circlip, etc) for compatibility, though.
11.24.23, 12:22 PM
APBos

2 Attachment(s)

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109254&stc=1
The Outer diameter is 62 mm which fits these 4 bearings found in the parts bin. They are 62mm x 25mm x17 mm! We are getting closer! Thank you for your help! Need to run to work for a few hours.

Regards
Paul

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109255&stc=1
11.24.23, 3:35 PM
tlracer

That bearing code fits the dimensions you gave. 2RS1 means it should have rubber dust seals on both sides.

The 25mm ID gives you the OD of the axle shafts, so the bigger ones I found aren't correct. Golf/Rabbit ones are splined from CV to thread, so can't be those.
11.27.23, 12:58 AM
APBos

3 Attachment(s)

A few hours turned to a few days. This Saturday I managed to pick up a pair of Lola t210 etc uprights and brake calipers from and estate auction.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109268&stc=1

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109267&stc=1
From the diagram shows they use lola 113-501-231 which is the same as the VW stub axle part number! I can measure these and see it they can be used in the new uprights. Lola Parts CO still makes a 6 pin hub, which I can use with these
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109269&stc=1
rims that were also at the auction! After work I will pull the bearing seal and measure the shaft width. I guess I might have two set of uprights if the geometry is close. Progress!
Paul
11.27.23, 2:50 AM
tlracer

The whole stub axle & bearing assembly Lola used is VW parts (they're all VW part numbers on the drawing):

113-501-231 stub axle comes up with 30mm shaft dia.
The bearing number in the Lola drawing is correct with that shaft, but isn't the bearing you have in the Steyr blue boxes (which is only 25mm ID).
11.27.23, 2:24 PM
scorp997

Just confirmed the VW and Porsche axles I have are 30mm, my bad for going off memory (not what it used to be!)
11.27.23, 11:03 PM
APBos

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So the Fastback Stub Axle definitely will not work. It is too wide at its base to fit in the inboard portion of the upright. I was hoping that I could just use another bearing or machine the upright, but the inboard area is 3 7/16 or 87.3 mm and no more meat to machine.I got an email from an owner of a LeGrand and he told me the stub axles were based on the Honda S600, He told me to give Scott Young a call as Taylor had the parts for his LeGrand. I’ve got to figure this is 25 mm shaft VW based I just have not found it yet. The Lola uprights would requie some changes on the suspension and geometry, but might be the least expensive option.
In did find this CV joint (missing some bearings) https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=109275&stc=1
It is correct for 25mm shafts. Something has to be out there. .

Regards
Paul
11.28.23, 12:51 AM
scorp997

I looked at Honda 600 axle images and they do look like the drawings. Plenty of them on eBay, I would do some research to verify axle OD and bearing size

If not Honda, check out other FWD axles from the late ‘70s or early ‘80s… SAAB 900 stubs look similar as well
11.28.23, 2:04 AM
APBos

Will do!
11.28.23, 2:31 AM
APBos

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorp997

I looked at Honda 600 axle images and they do look like the drawings. Plenty of them on eBay, I would do some research to verify axle OD and bearing size

If not Honda, check out other FWD axles from the late ‘70s or early ‘80s… SAAB 900 stubs look similar as well

Guess which stub axle uses a 6305 Bearing?!!!!!!! https://www.ebay.com/p/15004104672 The Honda 600! Now to find out the axle width…
11.28.23, 11:34 AM
tlracer

Quote:

Originally Posted by APBos

Guess which stub axle uses a 6305 Bearing?!!!!!!! https://www.ebay.com/p/15004104672 The Honda 600! Now to find out the axle width…

These are Honda N600 driveshaft assembly listings - the outer CV/axle unit does look very similar to the one in your driveshaft sub-assembly drawing and the CV itself has the same angled bolt holes as the incomplete one you found...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373446900215
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373446907521
11.28.23, 3:43 PM
scorp997

Since you need two and in good shape, this auction may be the best deal
https://www.ebay.com/itm/40437221320...Bk9SR-aQm_eCYw
11.28.23, 8:53 PM
APBos

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorp997

Since you need two and in good shape, this auction may be the best deal
https://www.ebay.com/itm/40437221320...Bk9SR-aQm_eCYw

John Allen
That add also gives me hope the axle width is correct. I contacted Scott Young today ( very helpful and knowledgeable), very nice guy and will send him a packet of information. My email contact had Taylor make some custom hubs front and rear in 2015. I will try to go the original part first and milling second. I will let everyone know what Scott thinks about the information and its current day safety. I would like to thank you all for your help and also Mike from Sports Racer Replicas for getting us this far. Hopefully we are on our way to completing the rear suspension!

Regards
Paul
11.29.23, 10:45 AM
scorp997

Scott will help a lot. Great guy and resource

after seeing all of your Super Vee parts you’ve picked up, an option to consider (assuming you don’t build the SV or part it out) is too use all of the Lola parts and locate the chassis pickup points to match a Lola. You have all of the a-arms and axles are a known size. Just something to consider before going too far
12.02.23, 3:58 PM
APBos

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorp997

Scott will help a lot. Great guy and resource

after seeing all of your Super Vee parts you’ve picked up, an option to consider (assuming you don’t build the SV or part it out) is too use all of the Lola parts and locate the chassis pickup points to match a Lola. You have all of the a-arms and axles are a known size. Just something to consider before going too far

I measured the Honda CV joint to the Hewland 6 hole drive shaft. They do not line up. I need to see if the Honda shaft will accept a VW CV joint. May be that is why he had the blueprints of the Hewland shafts. He might have planned on machining a Hewland drive shaft to match the Honda?

I definitely have options with the Lola uprights and the McNamera uprights give me. The McNamera upights have the correct shaft lengths and are very similar to the LeGrand type. They do use U-joints and are matched to the Hewland drive shafts in the Hewland transaxle already.

How do you test for cracks etc on an used used uprights? Safety Fast! (MG)

Regards
Paul
12.03.23, 4:11 PM
APBos

Does this thread give use some more clues as to how LeGrands did the axle shafts?
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...placement-Axle
12.04.23, 2:01 PM
Lee Johnson

Crack testing materials & info

Quote:

Originally Posted by APBos

How do you test for cracks etc on an used used uprights? Safety Fast! (MG)

Regards
Paul

Paul -- Pegasus Racing carries dye penetrant (aka, "dye pen") crack testing materials. (Other companies do also, McMaster-Carr?) They will work on non-magnetic materials (including even non-metals is some instances). The following URL takes you to their page for the visible light version (they also carry UV-light version & a UV flashlight) --

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=1207

If the parts you want to inspect are a magnetic material (steel, for example) the dye pen testing will work on them. Magnaflux testing will be even more sensitive (on magnetic material parts). Magnaflux can even detect some flaws that haven't progressed all the way to the part surface. A disadvantage of Magnaflux is the cost of the equipment; you would probably have to go to a service. Some automotive machine shops have the equipment but might not want to deal with something like uprights.

Lee

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