Found on craigslist for sale. Not mine. If they were cheaper I'd probably buy them just for the novelty.
I've never seen a sidewinder before. Were these competitive? Did they make many?
https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/5735280503.html
Printable View
Found on craigslist for sale. Not mine. If they were cheaper I'd probably buy them just for the novelty.
I've never seen a sidewinder before. Were these competitive? Did they make many?
https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/5735280503.html
Sidewinders are made in St Pete, FL. The manufacturer (Mike and Jeff Moench) still supports them. Not too many have been made. They can definitely be competitive.
What's strange about this ad is that they are listed as 2003 models, but the class name changed to F500 way before then.
Cory
Cool thanks for the info. I did notice the F440 and thought it was weird. i know technically midwestern council runs a F440 class, do any scca regions run it as a regional class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemartin144
I remember sidewinders being ultra competitive. $5000 grand for the pair seems like a deal. I agree the F440 class designation is weird for the vintage of these cars.
Wesley Wilfong won a ton of races in Sidewinders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Lenhart
Pretty sure F440 is still legal in F500.Quote:
Originally Posted by jemartin144
The 440s are still legal IF they have the new required roll bar dimensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by formulasuper
Yes, but the class designation on the side of the car would need to be F5 or F500 for SCCA road racing.
Those two have the Kaw in them and the clutch is riding below your right thigh. the newer sidewinders have the crossover shafts in them. there would be alot of work to update date them to the newer models. with rotax power.
love the fire bottle and fuel cell placed outside of the chaddis
Also, what is with the front rotors? Why are they so big and hung way outside of the wheel on what looks like a wheel half? Is there some advantage they were going for that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemartin144
holy cow!
As I recall from a conversation with Jim Bonsey who designed a built the Sidewinders the problem at the time was getting enough braking at the front when the rotors and calipers had to fit within the 10" wheels. So his solution was to use motorcycle rotors and attach them to the wheel hub. I'm pretty sure that solved the problem, though I don't know if it is still a problem for other manufacturers. FWIW, that conversation was from at least 10 years ago and Jim passed away perhaps 5 years ago.
I concur with Jay - Wesley Wilfong was badass in these beasts...
Wesley and I had the closest race I've been in to this day. At least 5 lead changes a lap every lap and two of them was done in the esses..............yes the esses. The boy had some big ones for sure.
New link on Craigslist
https://southbend.craigslist.org/bar/6012033991.html
Definitely not 2003 models. The black one has a decal from 1995.
Apparently they have been sitting a long time and there are no log books.
I could imagine the update costs would be staggering compared to something ready or close to ready. Can a Kawasaki be anywhere near competetive? How are the rotax update options dimensionally compared to the Kaw if you wanted to update to one? The cars are intriguing, but scarey with the amount of updates needed. My wife would like the sports car nose protection.
That really not the problem. The problem is do you want the engine clutch under your thigh? Think if that clutch explodes or the crank brakes. Your family life is over. But seriously I believe clutch maintenance will be hard to get at the clutch and the driven clutch will also be hard to get at. The cars have also sat along time so the fuel cells are probably not in good shape. The newer sidewinders have a shaft connected to the crank and that shaft runs through the driver cockpit to the other side of the car to make it safer and easier to get at the clutches. Truly you need to look at the cars that that are not projects unless you have alot of time on your hands. Yes you may pay more now but you will not be trying to engineer some ones problems. There is a reason those cars have sat so long. If you have the time and money for a project they may be what you want. But I wound not stick my legs in there with out a complete redesign of the car like what they did with the newer ones. That involves alot of time and money you would be better off with some of the cars that are out there. The three Red Devils that are for sale are all great cars. The yellow one is the less expensive and was made by the guy that is selling the other two.
https://us.letgo.com/en/i/sidewinder...6-325b18924f83
The white one is listed again at a $4500 price tag!
I had the same ideas when I bought my first car. A cheap fixer upper sounds great in theory but alas, there is no free lunch. Racing is expensive and you either pay upfront when you buy a car or later on when you have to redo the whole thing, either way you pay. If you pay upfront you end up with a good car to begin with and much less hassle and headaches. I found that after paying for all the expenses of a race weekend, its more fun if you get to actually finish all the races you paid to enter. The costs of the tow, entry fees, food, hotel etc. are still there even if you DNF and break the car in the first practice session for the weekend. Moreover, I personally like to race because I am a competitive person by nature, and want to win. If you just want to drive around, then yes an outdated car fits the bill, but it wont keep you satisfied long if you ever want to run near the front.
Its very similar to buying cheap tools, in the end you buy the good ones anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j mcfarland
With full credit to jalopnik, that price is CRACK PIPE.
Just some information on the Sidewinder F440's in this Thread. They are chassis #1 and #3 built in 1988 and 1991. They both have 440 Kawasaki power with the CVT inside the drivers compartment. The CVT was enclosed in a .125 steel cover (heavy). Later car has a .250in Kevlar composite cover over the CVT. Remove 2 pins and the covers came off in seconds. Both cars were on the second log book when Jim Bonsey and I (Mike Moench) sold them in 1994. These cars have inboard front brakes similar to gocarts. The unusual thing was the the rotors were 2024 aluminum with special compound pads for the aluminum disk. There are a total of 14 Sidewinder F440 and F500 Chassis. One chassis was built into a DSR with a 809 Rotax #cyl.Quote:
Originally Posted by jemartin144
Dean Oakes in south Florida has Chassis #2 which was originally constructed for Dr. George Moench. Chassis #4 was the first AMW powered car, still had the CVT inside the chassis. Chassis #5 and #6 were also AMW powered but all the AMW cars were converted to Rotax 494. We had some success with the AMW but it was not reliable. 12 more cars were constructed all with Rotax power with the CVT moved to the left side of the chassis and the wedge fuel cell behind the seat. Tom Stevens, Neil Spieler, Greg Reihle, Jason Somers, Jim Lyle, Bill Kneeland, Bill Lay, Sue Lay, John Voisem, Robe Robinson all were / are Sidewinder racers. Once Jim and I partnered up with Wes Wilfong we had some serious fun. We had a series of 9 national wins with runner up finishes at the Runnoffs 2 years in a row with track records at 4 tracks. Jim and Wes are both gone way before their time. Jim was 56 and Wes was 50 when they passed.
If any one needs parts or information you can reach me at Sidewinderracecars@gmail.com
Mike Moench
Very very innovaive cars with plenty of good ideas. Wilfong was a great driver in these or anything with wheels. In fact when i wss broke i tried to get Wes in one of my cars but he was broke too. Oh well!
Great ideas! I always expected them to become dominant with further development.
I thought the DSR would be a rocket.
Thanks for the info. Its cool to have seen some different ideas. This is part of the reason i really like this class. Such open rules means theres lots of ways to go fast without spending p1,p2,fb... kinds of money. And the MC engines sound great.
Some thoughts:
Those cars would make great solo 2 cars without road race front hoop upgrades. The possibility of chassis upgrade for road racing done cheaply and professionally is also possible too if one shops intelligently.
There is also the theory in solo that since driver sits further back in those cars than in others, the brain feedback on rear slip is perhaps a more pronounced and easier to stay on top of.Driver's head is about where is engine is located in other cars
That's an old theory on why high powered DM/EM Lotus 7 clones are so easy to drive in solo. Don't know if it has even been proven.
Does the very first generation Sidewinder drivetrain layout put the driver at risk?
The 1/8" thick steel shield in those older designs (of the sidewinder) is more than adequate.
In fact, one may argue that that arrangement is safer than the more typical F500 cars that place the CVT right behind the drivers left kidney with paper thin aluminum and the usual fabric fuel cell in between.
Those front brakes are awesome. I remember seeing 2 sidewinders run at a National at Moroso about 1990 and loved hearing the rotor-pad whine under hard braking.
Haven't been on Apex for some time and came over to see how F500 was doing, only to see this tread ... great memories for sure. I raced one of the newer Sidewinders for many years with Rotax power. Had a blast and still miss that car today. Miss Jim and Wes tremendously and enjoyed everything that made a Sidewinder a Sidewinder. A big part of that was both Mike and Jim, as well as, all the unique ideas that really made the car work. I'm sure these cars will need some work, but would make a nice Solo car for someone that is looking to get involved.
Jason Somers
It's a shame nobody pulled the photos off of craigslist, I would have loved to of check them out.
I remember the sidewiders spinning rather often at Mid Ohio runoffs (not a surprise or out of the ordinary in what were often tough conditions), but also being rather quick fairly often.
You know I have those pictures. I downloaded them when I was looking for a car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Livengood
It's like a SE Div F500 reunion all up in here!
I thought that Wesley would win the Runoffs for certain. The aero on the cars was great imo!
Wes could drive!!!!