DSR needs your help please vote

....At least as a favor for me. Takes a few seconds.

Actually, it isn't even a letter that's required. Simply click on link below, and the form looks like the image below. Just type in your name, member number, select "F-SR" as the category, "DSR" as the class and simply write "I am against any weight change and the Matrix proposed for DSR" in the title of request area and also paste it in the request box. Add any other opinion as you wish.

If you are for the matrix, don't use this link, it requires a different form and link. http://static.yuku.com/domainskins/b...eys/tongue.gif

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/t...LE/CRBform.jpg

http://www.crbscca.com

Heres some reasoning and background information:

[FONT=Calibri]Here comes a long explanation of the other side of the coin. So grab a coffee, read with an open mind and before posting feelings rather than facts, strongly consider the effects the matrix might do to DSR. I use a lot of reference to Stohr and the WF1, please let’s not make this an argument about Stohr Vs. West or Vs. whatever.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]First, I want to apologize (again) for being a major advocate of a weight change and promoter of the matrix and/or anything to increase the weight of cars in DSR. We all make mistakes. But here are my current thoughts why we should leave DSR rules alone.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]1)[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]The rules in DSR have been untouched for years. This actually used to upset me when that’s what I heard as a rebuttal to our request. But, coming from American Sedan, E-Production and now involved with my teammates H-Production car (Mike Moser), I can really understand the value of rules stability. It is hard to balance cars in the SCCA… In all classes. Major factors are the inability to measure ones resources, effort, car preparation and driving abilities. For example, it is possible to have all the best equipment and not understand how to properly adjust the suspension to extract maximum performance/grip out of the platform. It’s also very possible to have a perfectly setup car, with driver talent, but lacking various much needed performance parts. You can have talent, but lack experience… There are many combinations which really make a hard job for the CRB. Let me tell you a true story. Our H-Production CRX won the 2009 Runoffs with Dan Meller (another shop-mate) driving. For 2010, they added 100lbs to our car. Fair enough. A little background is necessary. The car was a long time build and originally was built for FP, but Dan and his dad, Mark, wanted to try H in the CRX. Previously they ran H in their 510 and shared their love for Hondas with all of us in our shop. So again, we won in ’09. During that season the car really received a lot of attention and testing to extract maximum grip to overcome the hp made in HP. So every race, the car got quicker and we really found the sweet spot at the runoffs test week. Dan dominated, we got 100lbs. The car was Mike’s, so 2010 was his turn. No one ever paid attention to Mike before, because his car was budget restricted in FP and was considerably off pace. But that was the deal, the Meller’s got free use of the car, but all parts and improvements would stay on Mike’s car. So Mike’s first race in H trim was at Blackhawk. Let’s see, a 1900lb championship CRX at a twisty momentum track. Mike dominated even with the extra 100lbs. He beat several nice F and E prod cars and bettered Dan’s track record from ’09. But remember, that was when the R&D began, Blackhawk in ’09… A different animal we ended up with at the ’09 runoffs. Mike also wins the Sprints. BAM! Another 175lbs as of August 1, 2010. 175lbs!?!?! That’s 275lbs more than ’09. What’s worse, is now Steve Sargis is in the game with his multi-championship G-Prod combination, which is now HP. At the Sprints, Sargis struggled, admitting the engine was old and he just threw it in to see what it would do. Mike was able to squeak out a win because of it. Needless to say, Sargis won the runoffs, Mike took 2nd while Sargis broke the record set by our CRX, before all the weight was added. So the CRB robbed us from the win. We tried to explain that other cars were under prepared and other older tin tops needed help, instead they threw us under the bus. So there is definitely something to be said about rules stability. You can work your ass off in D, set new records, no sand bagging and don’t have to worry about winning a lead trophy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]2)[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]The Matrix. The matrix seemed like a compromise. I figured ok, the Stohrs are the cars setting the pace, lets even the playing field and eliminate the excuses and try to retain/regain drivers. And possibly give some older cars a bit of an advantage, a 100lb advantage. And honestly, with that angle, figured I could get some help to get it through (sorry for being crafty). Others have argued that many drivers have left because of the weight and claiming they’re not able to get below 1000lbs. Well, that maybe true they left because of being overweight, but it is possible to get less than 1000lbs. To get to 900 is quite a challenge, but 950-975 is very attainable and actually not even as expensive as a built motor. I’m not saying it’s easy, but neither is every other aspect of preparing a DSR to the pointy end of the field. And drivers come and go in every class. All pick one excuse reason or another. But the truth of the matter is, to drive, prepare and to have the resources to develop a DSR to run a low 2:00 lap at RA is no easy task. As humble as I can make it sound, we did run a 2:02 at 1000lbs in some pretty crummy conditions at the Sprints. Sure, math is fact. It takes hp to move weight. Weigh more, need more power, more braking distance, etc. BUT, I’ve learned that in these cars, aero and setup can overcome weight in corner speed and braking distance. More corner speed can make your motor look like it’s got 10 more hp and overcome weight. Sure, all things being equal…. But things are never equal, not even in spec classes. This can be argued to the death, but check out SM, SRF, etc. No cars are equal, regardless of their rules. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]3)[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]3 really should be 2b. The matrix can do some really weird stuff to the class and even make it harder than buying some expensive lightweight components and starving ourselves into shape. I originally thought no one would possibly cut up their Stohr and reduce the wheelbase and track to take advantage of the intent of the matrix and run at 900lbs. But the fact of the matter is, there are people who are willing to do just that. That’s part of racing, read the unfair advantage by Mark Donohue. There are many who have the resources to make this happen. AND realize this: if all new cars are frozen at 1000lbs (to keep designers from building smaller 900lbs cars like a WF-2) then all cars built before the matrix goes into play automatically become rare and value of these cars will skyrocket since these cars could loophole the system. Sure, I have one of these cars, but I’m not looking to increase the value of my car, I’m looking out for the best of the class.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]4)[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]With the matrix, now we raised the weight to 1000 and bigger cars with more tire and aero can be competitive at 1100lbs. New cars are built and might be even faster than or hopefully just as fast as the current Stohrs. Then someone figures out how to get one of these bigger cars down to 1050, then 1000. Then current drivers all complain and want the weight to be raised to 1100 because it’s too hard and expensive to get those cars to 1000lbs. Basically, the cycle repeats its self.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]5)[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]This kinda goes with 1. It isn’t fair to those who have spent the time, effort and money to build a sub 1000lb car. I agree, DSR is a tinker-er’s class where brilliant minds can run wild. Why stop it? Sure to build a 900lb car, fit in the aero and provide ample track/wheelbase for stability and consistency is a real challenge. That’s the beauty of DSR and how brilliant everyone involved of making the WF1 what it is today.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]The intent and the way a rule is interpreted, is two entirely different things. And once we get the matrix instated, it will be next to impossible to get it removed. Yes, I was able to get my car to 960lbs last runoffs. I was the lightest I’ve been since middle school and running pencil axles. I also removed as much of the data system and sensors as possible, including radio’s for the race. If I didn’t paint my car, ran a much simpler data system than my MXL PRO, continued dieting/working out, I’m sure I could get down to 940, 935. If I threw on the TI brakes Crook ran, well that get me down to the teens. So it is possible, far from impossible. Now if you don’t want to or I don’t want to, that’s a different story… But we can’t change the rules because of that and the various reasons above. Remember, the matrix will not make it cheaper or easier to win the runoffs.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]I also feel I owe Critter an apology. The fact of the matter is, he was ahead of the curve. He developed a very fast complete package. Sure, Crook being so light was a factor. But Critters setup is what got Crook the win (besides Gary’s great drive). I'll admidt, I was a sore loser… Just another race car driver![/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]So I ask, I beg all of you… Please write in a letter immediately to stop the matrix. And let DSR be what it has been for years before many of us and will be, many years after us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia]http://www.crbscca.com/[/FONT][/FONT]

Lawrence, could you post a link as to what the matrix proposal is?

Quote:

I can really understand the value of rules stability.

That one sentence alone needs repeating over and over again just about everywhere. :thumbsup:

Vote sent.

Alex,

The Matrix is a table where you multiply your cars track X wheelbase to determine your minimum weight. Initially the idea was to give the older cars a bit of help because they are considerably smaller. But mostly to try to make DSR minimum weight easier to achieve to the avg DSR racer. But if you read the few points above, it will open a can of worms and in the end the cycle will repeat itself as written in point #4 above. Not to mention, 1 square inch can get you 100lbs.

Again, the intent and the way it can be interputed is 2 different things. And us racers will always work hard to find that extra edge and a way to loophole the system. Once I realized that, I realized this change that was meant for good would really do nothing good.

Matrix proposal

from the April Fasttrack
DSR
1. #2786 – April
In 9.1.9.A.2.b, replace "Minimum weight of all chain and belt-drive cars is 900 lbs.,
with driver. All other cars are 1000 lbs., with driver." with "The minimum weight of all
cars shall be determined by multiplying the wheelbase by the maximum overall width
of the car as measured within the wheelbase.
Up to 6000 square inches: 900 lbs.
6001 to 7500 square inches: 1000 lbs.
Over 7500 square inches: 1100 lbs."

I am bringing a 2' wide chunk of wood and two axes

to the R/O's.

LL, I will personally offer my services as a Peace Broker, ala Henry Kissinger.

We can sit down in the motorhome, a couple of adult beverages. Keep it real simple.

Nothing would make me happier to have two of my bestest race buds seein' eye to eye...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LLoshak

Not to mention, 1 square inch can get you 100lbs.

In fairness you have to draw a line somewhere. One side you get this, other side you get that. You also could go another 1499 square inches without any additional penalty.

Has there been any consideration of what this matrix is going to do on the front and rear overhang ouside of the decribed box? Does DSR have a maximum overhang rule?

Well well well LL, you finally have seen the light after attempting to screw up DSR. Reason number four seems very familiar, seeing as how I authored that point years ago on the DSR forum, and headed off a weight change for that rule change cycle year. So what do the other proponents of a weight increase think of you jumping ship?

I haven't looked at the DSR forum since april having grown extremely tired of the yearly debate over a weight increase, so get me up to speed, won't you? Feel free to grovel.

Hey we all make mistakes. Now Im putting my in my best effort to clean it up.

Although I do see some issues with min at 900 and still stand behind my opinion on many things, I realized there is no easy fix and most importantly, the negatives that come with this change seem like they will outweight the positives.

As it looks right now, by the poll, most are against it. But not nearly as many sent in a request. Thats why I started a bit of a campaign on this forum, SR forum and via email.

Glenn, sounds great. But it takes two to dance.

I read the CRB was supposed to make their final decision on a proposed rule change to the BOD today, any word on what they decided?