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Hi all,
I am just starting a ground up restoration of a T440 and the big question is do i move the engine back or not? .Im, not a nutter on keeping things factory original as there wouldn't be many unmodifyed ffs around but any mods I would like to be "Period"not late 80s 90s 2000s improvements. It would appears I would need to change the rear roll cage stay and bodywork etc . How common was this mod in the 70s? You thoughts please.
racergirl and brian ? moved their engines back. My understanding is there is too much weight up front. I don't think it will be much of an issue in vintage and I felt fine in mine. Only about 4% of vintage people may get 100% out of a car anyway.
I left mine as is because it may be vintage someday. To me, keep it origonal, if you don't like it, sell it and buy a better car.
Imagine if someone said, this "camber car", has too much camber, I'll change the suspension. Though hokey, it will be interesting to someone someday.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/27/2...-wheel-racers/
Hi Ian... I got mine modified. I am short and I think it was advantageous for me to have the 40-60 weight distribution but I havent driven it any other way so I dont know.
I have some original bodywork I cant use... so yes you have to modify the engine cover.
I have many pictures... of the winter rebuilds. none from before though sorry to say.
Let me know if I can be of assistance.
Dani
I moved mine for a variety of reasons. The idea of taking weight off the front is obvious, what is not so obvious is that you only take 20 odd pounds off the front of the car in total so I say the difference is moot. I moved mine so that I could move the fuel cell to a wedge behind the driver inside of the chassis ( really didn't like the whole bag hung out in the side pod thing and I needed a new fuel cell anyway). This also allowed me to move the driver back (I am 6'-2" tall) and there is now more than ample room for a quite tall driver. Putting the cell there meant moving the original oil tank. I built a new tank installed in the front of the engine bay although you could probably move the original tank. I saw that the original cage was not stiff enough, evidenced by the fact that the original adaptor ring and the gearbox bellhousing were cracked and repaired many times. I had to replace the adaptor ring and re-case the gearbox to finally solve a major leak problem at the input shaft. The original gearbox was not modified to allow a starter motor to fit, and the original adaptor ring (Hewland) was either a factory second or hadn't been finish-machined as it was .100" off center on the register ring. I also made up an annular clutch slave cylinder.
I also installed a new taller roll-bar, and put in dual rear braces to replace the original center brace. I feel that these modifications could well have been accomplished in period and meet the spirit and letter of club ford for both SCCA and the various vintage groups. If you can fit in the car as it is, and if you can create an adequate fuel cell protection system (the original aluminium side panels on the car don't meet SCCA fuel cell container rules) then leave it as is. You'll have to chase cracks in the gearbox and adaptor ring, you will have to retain the stock clutch slave cylinder setup. Basically it's fix it now or fix it later, so no harm no foul either way. I kept the cage and motor mounts so I could put it back if I ever felt like it. Gave the old fuel cell system and oil tank away.
Cheers, Brian
I have a clutch slave cylinder spare..
I also have some hardware which seems like it may have been part of the spacer set up in my spare hardware if anyone needs it.
I have an X bar from roll hoop to upper rear cross member for strengthening, as well as one from the dash hoop to bulkhead.
We just finished re-configuring the 440 to provide greater driver room, increase rollbar protection and stiffen the chassis; all without removing the engine to tranny spacer.
Our objective was first and foremost to get lower in the car. We did that by removing the stock oil tank behind the driver and the fuel bladder from the right sidepod. We then fabricated an aluminum oil tank, with all the fittings and filler cap, and mounted it in the sidepod. The tank is baffled, holds about 6 quarts, and worked like a champ at Infineon in September. Then, ordered and installed a wedge fuel cell with aluminum enclosure behind the driver. Cut out the solid stiffening bar formerly located just behind the driver's shoulder and fabricated a truss-like stiffening member which we mounted just above the fuel cell.
Now, I'm much lower in the car and I can stretch out. I'm 5'11", 240 lbs. and fit just fine.
Next phase, installed a taller, now legal rollbar to max height while still staying within the high rear bodywork of the 440.
From the top rear of the rollbar we extended a criss-crossedtubing stiffener, attached at two points on the rollbar and two on the rear crossmember; all replacing the original single tube.
Finally, We added forward support from the rollbar, tied directly to the front hoop and anchored on the top sidepod rail.
The car handles much better, so I'm having to re-think the Bilsteins.
It was a fun project.
Larry
Ian, the Lola T340/2 was a milestone car that made average drivers into Heros. Very forgiving, easy to handle, and a blast to drive fast. The T440 was Lola's attempt to improve on that design and it failed miserably. The idea was to obtain a near 50/50 weight distribution and it looked great on paper. However it cramped the driver forward and it was a horrendiously vile handling car. Nearly destroyed Lola's FF reputation. Many found that by moving the engine back into position, the car handled so much better and much like the T342 which still was a competitive car in late 70's. Since this mod was common back in the day so vintage standings shouldn't be affected. Toss the bird cage and you'll have a wonderful car that you'll have fun with and be able to keep on the track at speed. Check on my website at www.TheLolaRegistry.com and contact the T440 owners on the registry. I'm sure they will be more than happy to help you with the mod and give you more insight for the conversion. And at the same time drop me a line with all your car info and history and I'll gladly post your information as well, Good luck Allan
Now that we have the attention of a few T440 drivers, how about sharing setup advice? I had the original Bilsteins with 400# rear and 350# front springs. I had a push that I could not get rid of. I also had to run 2" front ride height and had a grounding problem at T5A Mosport (not uncommon, that is a hard braking zone combined with a sharp uphill transition - I lived with it). I shortened the shocks open length so that I didn't get so much coil rattle when the car was on stands, but they do not droop limit in use,
This year I went to Penske single adjustable, and tried various spring combinations. I went as high as 450 front 500 rear, and as low as 250 front 300 rear. I could make it oversteer but I could not get rid of the push. In some high speed corners it would just wash out completely, and at one point I had the odd experience of having understeer and oversteer at the same instant - quite odd and no one believes me!
The final setup which worked the best was 250 front, 300 rear, 2.25" front, 2.5" rear ride heights (which are the stock ride heights), and front bump stops configured to add rate fairly quickly to keep it off the ground under hard braking in T5A at Mosport, which worked quite well - no grounding. The car was well balanced, easy to drive, but still suffered from what I have decided is a congenital lack of front grip. I think it needs about 2" more front track, quite frankly.
Any comments on all of this?
Brian
440 setup... HM.... I run some really bumpy tracks (unfortunately due to the availability of good tracks without spending a fortune, but I digress) so my ride height is relatively high.
I have issues with the front slamming into the ground under braking. I still run bilstiens. I am going to change out my fronts for some spares I have and see if that helps. I am very middle of the road with the springs.
My experience may be useful or not. Let me preface this with the fact that my club runs American Racer HARD Spec Tires.
My biggest problem from what I understand isnt lack of front grip but rear end coming around on me. I have to lift and steer to correct. I have been playing with the ARB to plant the back a little more. Now its cold, so grip is an issue as a function of temperature ;(
I have one more weekend down at Summit Point WV at the Shenandoah Circuit - I am just glad its on 4 wheels again! For those who dont know, Labor day weekend I had a wheel to wheel incident and the other car removed my RR for me. Rebuilt and racing again :) Now if I can tighten the nut behind the wheel I should be ok.
Hope this was helpful...
Sounds like something a rapper would do...
I was very impressed with how well some properly configured bump stops worked to control this for me. I set them with about a half inch of free play, and they added enough rate to keep the car off the ground but didn't affect turn-in at all, and probably didn't engage much mid corner at all either. Win-win.
I used these: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecId=4797
I had to cut them down significantly to get them to fit properly, but your shocks will be different than mine. Something to consider.
Brian
Hi Guys,
Whlle you are all here I have A few questions.
1. what is the best way to paint/coat magnisium uprights
2, is it ok to electrozink the front stub axles and rearhalf shafts that go through the uprights( I know chrome is not a good idea)
3. what is the best paint for the chassis
4 Where the front uprights cromed out of the factory or painted
5 " " wishbones " " " " " " " or nickled
Im looking for a steering rack and some new or exellent condition rear radiators and also the fibreglass radiator side pods,again new or exellent condition.
Thanks guys and girls any advice and info will be greatly appreciated, There will probably be more questions as time goes on.
Regards Ian Staples
1. what is the best way to paint/coat magnisium uprights
First get them cleaned and non destructive inspected, such as flourescent dye penetrant (Zyglo) or x-rayed. An aircraft component inspection/repair station can do this for you or a really competent prep shop. Clean magnesium can be treated with a chromate conversion chemical such as Alodine. I painted my mag parts with clearcoat paint after the Alodine treatment. Wear gloves, tyvek coveralls and an organic/acid respirator to do this.
2, is it ok to electrozink the front stub axles and rearhalf shafts that go through the uprights( I know chrome is not a good idea)
Don't know. If the plating adds material thickness to the part, you want to be careful or mask off where the bearings fit up. The dimensions need to be to spec.
3. what is the best paint for the chassis
Powdercoat is tough, but hard to remove to make weld repairs. Acrylic enamel or epoxy paints are easier to repair. Using lighter colors help you spot developing cracks, which will happen.
4 Where the front uprights cromed out of the factory or painted
5 " " wishbones " " " " " " " or nickled
Allan Chou might be able to answer. Avoid chrome plating unless the appropriate bakeout procedures are followed.
1. what is the best way to paint/coat magnisium uprights
I don't know the "best" way but the suggestion above sounds right to me. Keep in mind that the T440 has no Magnesium uprights, the fronts are steel and the rears are aluminium. Aluminium doesn't have the cracking or corrosion issues that Mag does. I just clean them, inspect them for cracks and paint them. The paint gets blasted off really quickly, so I use cheap paint and do it fairly often.
2, is it ok to electrozink the front stub axles and rearhalf shafts that go through the uprights( I know chrome is not a good idea)
No - no coating or painting. They won't fit if you do that, since they are a fairly stiff press fit already. Just clean them and put them together. You could paint the CV joint bell that fits over the splines on the rear if you like, and obviously paint the outer flange. Don't paint or plate the front stub axles at all.
3. what is the best paint for the chassis
Baked on two part automotive enamel is traditional. Powder coating looks great and for a historic car that won't get used as hard and need chassis repairs is a great choice. Brush on POR15 is extremely durable, very tough and surprisingly good looking.
4 Where the front uprights cromed out of the factory or painted
Painted black.
5 " " wishbones " " " " " " " or nickled
Nickle plated. there is no place for chrome on any substantive part of a race car.
All body parts, in excellent quality, are available from Tony Waterman http://tw-mouldings.co.uk/main.htm I bought a complete body from him, in a custom colour with polished gel coat. Very nice and from the original factory moulds.
I just had one of my rear rads recored, $245, looks like new, and he said he could have made up complete new ones in the original brass just as easy (he's like "duh - that what a rad man DOES...").
Brian
I am fairly a novice. Running in my last race, I got to a 1.01+ at Lime Rock park. a lot of the veteran drivers run 1, 59, 58 or in there abouts.
My car has origonal non adjustable shocks, 400 and 250 springs, used hard goodyear tires. Not scaled and aligned it myself, which is likely not too good. I put a wedge cell in the car without cutting anything out. Oil tank is on the side of the engine. The cage setup is not the best, but seems ok for me.
So my thought is if I had better shocks, new tires, proper alignment and more experience I could get up to midfield pretty easily. So the car is not completely out to lunch as is.
Vintage in the US is a little more mild than Europe. So in vintage here my car would be just fine.
My plan is to drive it and do the best I can with it. When I am ready to try to race upfront, I will sell it and buy another car. I just don't have the time to engineer all the bad points out.
Brian - I think fab'd new front uprights. If I had the money, I would do this. The damn things look like they are from a John Deere backhoe or something. They must weigh 50 pounds.
Ian, Lolas had something called satin nickle on all the suspension parts (A arms, links, and radius rods). This coating looked like a matt silver finish. The front uprights were also plated like this. All Lolas in the FF family came with a Dove Grey painted frame from the factory. The best paint I have found for the chassis is a two part epoxy primer called DPL 80 or 90. While it is a primer, I found it to be a great as the finial coat for a chassis. The 90 is black, and I think the 80 is Grey. They also make a white (70?). The Primer dries with a satin sheen, not flat, and is almost indestructable and very scratch resistent. I first used this stuff on the exposed A arms of a Reynard F2000 (orginally black) and after 3 seasons, there were no chips or abrasions and look like new. Even plating would had chipped off by then. This paint would also be great for the rear uprights.
I'm playing around in making radiators in aluminum and made a prototype set. They weigh next to nothing, 2 pounds maybe, and are like night and day compared to the originals which I think was made out of cast iron lol. Plus all these OEM brass rads are now over 30 years old. But to make them, I had to cut down a much larger core which makes them a bit on the expensive side when you need two per car. But with two T340's in restoration, I had to do something. Cool huh? When you find a source for steering racks, let me know, Thanks Allan
These parts are aimed at the FST crowd, but might work for you: SRacing.comQuote:
Originally Posted by Allan T. Chou
Scroll down to the rack, clevis and coupler.
Stan
I don't think this is true. I have a factory brochure of 642 and the chassis is clearly black. My car's chassis is black (a 644) and it is original. I have seen another 644 and it's chassis was grey. Maybe it was an option or it depended on where the car was going?Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan T. Chou
I am a middle school shop teacher in NJ and I've started a ground up restoration of a T440 with my 8th grade students. I currently race a '64 Cooper S Mini but my friend lent me his open wheel so we could use some slave labor for the tear down and rebuild. The kids are loving every minute. I will take them to the track with EMRA this Spring to see racing. I will be watching this site for help but in the meantime I could use a source for decent diagrams or the frame and suspension so we don't have to sketch each assembly. Our nosepiece is really beat up so we could use a better one. My steering rack is missing. I need advice to fit me in because I'm 6-2" 200lbs. I've seen improvements by adding a nose bar to protect the master cylinders, a roll hoop w/brace behind the dash, and more. Right now we're dealing with the original until its all clean and prepped. Then we'll consider mods. Feel free to lend any advice or offer up any spares you don't need. Thanks much
Bruce Whipple
Bruce - Fellow FPR/EMRA Open wheeler here....
My crew chief maintains a 440, if you have any specific questions, send them in my direction. I believe he has the racer, and a spare...
Bruce, feel free to email me at brian.evans at cadotmcidotcom. I restored a T440 a few years ago and did the required mods to fit me at 6'2" and 220lbs. The fundamental mods were raising the roll bar to the maximum that fit under the stock rear bodywork, and putting the fuel cell behind the seat, moving the oil tank to the engine compartment. That let me have a much more reclined seating position.
I also moved the engine back eliminating the cage, and I am slowly working on fixing the suspension geometry. One day I will make a wide track suspension kit for it...
Brian
It's great to read about 440's in the US and the various approaches to improving the car. It came to me tonight that we should inventory the 440 spares we all have, spares we don't need, etc., so it would be easy for one of us in need to locate 440 specific parts. For example, I have a spare frame and engine spacer, a couple sets of Revolutions, etc. Just a thought.
Brian, Allan, and others,
I appreciate the answers and offers. I will likely take advantage of alot of your advice and plans at some point. Our car had already had the front wide track conversion done to the suspension. The spring rates had been proven and apparently the car was competitive but that was along time ago. I probably will move the seat back as far as it will possibly go in the normal position to limit alterations. If I don't fit I'll find a smaller driver. We already have a brand new FUEL SAFE cell for the side pod location which we didn't have to pay for. I have seen a few nobrainer additions like a taller main hoop, forward side supports for the main hoop, dashboard hoop w/supports, front nose hoop around master cyls. and so on. Whats involved in moving the engine and tanks back? Where can I find a new nose? Our body had rear "tea tray" wing extension, is it worth it or should be rebuild the glass spoiler at rear? Where's the best place to buy Lockheed brake pads, caliper and master rebuild kits, wheel bearings, etc.? Any good books on FF to recommend? Thanks again.
Whip
I am restoring a T440 and have bought wheel bearings here in new Zealand ,The small odd sized one was only $5.80 usd and that was a genuine SKF they are the same as toyota corolla , I asked if it was a mistake and he assured me it wasn't but I'm not so sure. and the calliper kits where availible off the shelf as they are mini cooper,about$85usd for all 4 , If I can help let me know I'm only to happy to post things over although most things are cheaper on your side of the sea. I will be after a pair of new radiators if any one can sort out a discount for multiple units I may be keen.
Regards, Ian.
I also bought new master cylinders (probably chinese) girling copys for about $25usd each
Regardless of brand and cost I would rethink putting any fuel cell in any side pod.
If your doing a frame up, consider closing off your "c " channel frame rails, often referred to as the 5th spring in that car.
Dani, shocks and spring rates, Call Stimola make sure you have ALL your data first
If you use the side pod fuel cell, you should upgrade the aluminium to .620" 6061-T6, and install an inner panel. When I upgraded my roll bar, the stock bar that I replaced was only .080" thick tubing, and I put in .125" thick tubing.
Re: spares - I need a pair of front suspension rocker arms. I can make the other suspension arms if needed. I have a local rad shop that can recore the rads, but shipping into and out of Canada may be an issue, costs about $265 each.
Brian
Does anyone have a lead on where I can a new or used flat nose for the T440 project at my school shop? We have the original but it is really toasted and it would take too much resin and patches to fix it. I also realized we don't have the pillow blocks to mount the steering rack. I have the rack and bolts but no clamps. Send me an email if you have any spares we might make use of. I can be emailed directly at bwwhipple@embarqmail.com Thanks
Whip
http://www.tw-mouldings.co.uk/main.htm
has the original factory moulds for the body of your car, and they are in excellent shape. I know this because I bought a complete new body for my car. Very high quality, to match the price. Over in England they have this odd idea that you should actually be able to make a living supplying race car parts...:D
I have a spare nose but just one, so it really is a spare.
Brian
We found the original steering rack for our school car but it was missing the special pillow blocks to mount it with two bolts at either end. Does anyone know of a source or am I better off making some out of aluminum. Our entire frame is stripped of parts now and we are cleaning all the paint and rust off every member. We drilled out the rivets holding the aluminum skidpan on. Temporarily we're using a light coat of Rustoleum grey primer to prevent the rust from flashing over and so far it has showed up a few small cracks in the welds and frame that would never have been seen if it were black. Our satin nickel plating has held up on most links and rods and uprights. The pedal assembly was rusted quite a bit and we used a great looking Rustoleum spray called stainless steel. It actually sprays a fleck somehow depositing a stippled brushed SS look that seems durable and looks awesome. Its tough keeping the correct hardware with the proper members if only to replace it at reassembly with new but at least you'll find it, measure it and replace it. Has anyone actually replaced the skidpan with thin steel for strength, stiffness and its easily welded to the frame instead of drilling more rivet holes in the already thin frame? The saga continues. Thanks Bruce
If you have access to a lathe and a drill press, or a mill, new pillow blocks are an hour away. You should be able to get dimensions from the car. One way to adjust bump steer is to shim the rack up and down on the chassis, btw. The T440 was both brazed and Mig welded. Don't try to mig weld where there was braze previously. the belly pan on my car is .220" thick. It's probably about the stiffest part of the car. Makes it handy to jack the car up, just put the jack anywhere on the belly and have at it...:D
If you do replace the pan, use .100" 6061 T6 Al (or thicker if you like), toss the original bolts, and rivit and glue it to the chassis. There is a debate about if you should weld up the old rivit holes in the frame. Personally, I do. Mig weld and dress them smooth.
If you get stuck with the pillow blocks let me know, I can make them for you.
Brian
HI Allen,
I sent you an e-mail about the aluminum ones you made???
Wanna make another set?
Jeff
i left mine stock,handles fine.i agree with 4% get 100% out of car.most times its driver looking for a reason to blame car for poor performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce kitchen
LOL. Unfortunately not in this case. You're just not driving the car hard enough if you think the handling is fine. Just try to follow a Good T340 driver through the turns, the stock T440 transitions from understeer to oversteer way too fast to keep up. Every National level T440 tossed the cage back in the day. Even Lola realized this and went back to the 340 configuration in the T540. So in this case, yeah, it was the car. But I like idea of keeping it stock for vintage. After all, it was what it was.
i should clarify this.car is not stock.what i am refering to is that i have not moved the engine at all.there is suspen mods,as well of a few other thinngs,uses britain west engine,quickest time at mosport is 1.min30.5 sec
Can anyone help me with parts for a 1977 Lola T-440.
I am looking for a right rear wheel bearing and a dust cover for a front hub.
I may also be interested in a new set of headers.
thanks so much sparkie
Sparkie, I see you are in NJ, where abouts? I'm in Westfield but out of the country until November. But to answer your questions, the bearings are easy. Just pulll one out and read the bearing number. Go to Newark Bearing and they should have them. Just don't tell them it's for a car, they won't sell it to you for liabilities issues. The front seals are just as easy. Again, pull one out, read the part number and go to a Napa or Norwood Auto if you have one in your area. They can find the seal that would match. As for the headers, no one I know makes the exact header that came with the car. But any up swept header would work. Out to the side and back. Go to the Sthal Header site, and pick one out. It may not go through the engine cover opeing exactly so just trim it away until it does. Plus Sthal's pre fabed headers are pretty cheap the last time I bought one. The only other way is to get them custom made, and in that case, Wayne from Chassis Engineering in Mellville? (I know it's near Bridge Water on Finderne Ave.) could make them, but spendy. Good luck and when I get back you should drop by, I have 2 T340's, 2 T492's, a T360, and a T594, not to mention all the other race cars and sports cars under restoration. Good luck with you rebuild, Allan
Thanks Allan :
All good information. I will get right on it. I live in north jersey ( Franklin ) my friends car is from NY State. We run at monticello. Without question we will have to get new headers. We may need some help with a couple of other cars my friend has too. I am the mechanic and he does keep me busy. All in a good way for sure. We may need parts for a F1 and a Van Diemen along the way.
again thank you so much Sparkie :tire: