Engine removal questions

Not finding many posts on engine removal/install.

I'm removing the engine in my Protoform P3 for the first time for a winter refresh and had some basic questions on the steps involved to make it as painless as possible. If someone could describe the preferred removal sequence, it would be helpful. I have gearbox and engine oil drained and all electrical connections and hoses disconnected, shocks and springs removed...etc. but wondered:

Do engine and trans come out together.... or separately ?
With axels attached or remove them first ?
Is there a right or wrong way to do it, or just pull it apart ?
What are the weights I'll be dealing with ? Can one guy handle it or do I need a helper ?
Is a hoist needed or just sit the car flat on the floor and slide things apart ? I even wondered about leaving the wheels attached so the trans might roll out ?

TIA............. Gary

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Originally Posted by Gary Slahor

Not finding many posts on engine removal/install.

I'm removing the engine in my Protoform P3 for the first time for a winter refresh and had some basic questions on the steps involved to make it as painless as possible. If someone could describe the preferred removal sequence, it would be helpful. I have gearbox and engine oil drained and all electrical connections and hoses disconnected, shocks and springs removed...etc. but wondered:

Do engine and trans come out together.... or separately ?
With axels attached or remove them first ?
Is there a right or wrong way to do it, or just pull it apart ?
What are the weights I'll be dealing with ? Can one guy handle it or do I need a helper ?
Is a hoist needed or just sit the car flat on the floor and slide things apart ? I even wondered about leaving the wheels attached so the trans might roll out ?

TIA............. Gary

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It comes down to personal choice and what tools you have in shop.
The construction of the car will be the final decider of how it comes out.

My method most of the time was to put car up on stands put a die table under gearbox motor combo and separate from frame/tub.

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Originally Posted by Pi_guy

It comes down to personal choice and what tools you have in shop.
The construction of the car will be the final decider of how it comes out.

My method most of the time was to put car up on stands put a die table under gearbox motor combo and separate from frame/tub.

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I like my Craftsman aluminum motorcycle jack with appropriate wooden cradle to handle the engine-trans

Most FVs have the engine come out without messing with the transmission or rear suspension. It may be as quick as a 20 min job with two people lifting, one from each side. Let FV people with Protoforms weigh in on the best way.

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Originally Posted by jrh3

I like my Craftsman aluminum motorcycle jack with appropriate wooden cradle to handle the engine-trans

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Done this dozens of times on P3. Car stays on the ground. There are two bolts attaching the rear subframe,loosen the lower and remove the upper.This allows the subframe to rotate to the floor of your garage until striking the concrete. Place weight at the rear to hold the gearbox tail down AFTER unbolting the shift linkage heim joint from the frame so you don't bend the long rod. Use your lift( I use a come along hooked directly above to the garage ceiling) to support a chain to a forward exhaust stud on one side and a rear exhaust stud on the other side. Unbolt the motor from the transmission and use the the lift to remove tension and jiggle the motor forward, up, and out vertically. The cantilever design allow the motor to be lifted with the tail of the gearbox on the ground. I can do it alone but a helper first time is good.Easy for two to lift motor out without the come along or lift if you have help. The main idea is to keep the rearmost of the gearbox on the ground. Reinstall motor and allow gearbox to rise back up and reinsert the uppermost of the two vertically placed bolts to hold the rear subframe in place and install forward braces, reattached shift linkage, etc. Contact me if you get stuck. Bob Posner

Thanks for the suggestions.

My P3 has been modified considerably from stock, but I'll give Bob's method a try.

The first time is always a challenge.

Gary

Best to contact the previous owner.
He can best inform you.
Your car is a bit different from a stock P3
Bob P described the perfect method for a stock p3

have a buddy on hand

drink AFTERWARDS

have a buddy on hand<br><br>drink AFTERWARDS

We generally do NOT drain the transmission......
I keep a couple of 2x4 and 4x4 blocks to put under the frame as needed.

Gary,
If you happen to live close to Jonathan Weisheit, call him and he can talk you through it.. MIGHT even be able to drop by and help you through the process the first time. Generally speaking, removing a vee motor from a vee is WAY WAY WAY easier than removing the engine from almost anything else. It still takes some time, but you have already disconnected all the 'stuff' that takes the time.. and probably a whole lot of stuff that did NOT need to be disconnected (you'll learn :-) ).

There are a few vees in your general area (MD) - hopefully, one of them will see this and be able to physically help you get it done.

Steve, FV80

Thanks for all the suggestions.
I got it out and it really was pretty straightforward. "Just do it" was the best tip.
It definitely had to come out as a unit.... then separate the trans.
You definitely are correct in that it will be a breeze the next time.

I'm going to get the engine/carb refreshed and will replace the clutch and throwout bearing while it's apart.

Anything else I should attend to ?

Gary

As a 'general rule'..
1). There is no need to 'refresh' the carb.. unless it has ISSUES that you are aware of that need to be fixed. Just clean it if it needs it.

2). There is (mostly) no need to replace the clutch disc or T/O bearing .. UNLESS there are issues that you are aware of. You should CHECK the T/O bearing every time you can see it.. but they are intended to last MANY THOUSANDS of miles in a car, and engines often come out AT LEAST once per year. That is often enough to just 'keep an eye on them'. LOOK at the T/O bearing for 'rust dust' visually and manually SPIN the face of the bearing. If it makes NOISE to any degree, then replace it - otherwise leave it alone. I also routinely safety wire the T/O CLIPS together so they can't come out accidentally. I've only had that happen ONCE, but .. why not wire them together .. just in case. Don't make it TOO tight if you wire across from side to side since it will be going past the trans input shaft (make sure it doesn't touch the shaft) OR you can just wire each side to the arm of the clutch fork that the clips attach to. When you reinstall the engine, set the clutch so that the top of the clutch release 'ring' just does NOT touch the T/O bearing. It should NOT spin except when the clutch is depressed for shifting or just getting started in the paddock. I just PULL on the clutch arm at the bell housing.. you can FEEL the T/O bearing hitting the clutch.. 'hit' and then 'back off' a tad. Make sure your clutch 'arrangement' (the complete assembly - from pedal to clutch arm - be it hydraulic or cable) is FREE to fully release the T/O when not in use.

3). When you reinstall the engine ALWAYS put a light dab of light GREASE (I use teflon grease) on the end of the trans input shaft. This will make sure that the bushing that the shaft goes into (inside the GLAND NUT on the flywheel) will be lubed properly. Failure to do that COULD possibly cause you serious heartache down the road. Just takes a second to do and is well worth the effort.

4). Check the same as #3 above for throttle pedal FREEDOM - make sure you have a little slack in the cable when OFF the pedal.. and make sure the throttle plate goes WIDE OPEN at the carb when the pedal is full down.. and make sure you have a STOP on the pedal.. Your tendency when racing is to MASH THE HELL OUT OF THAT PEDAL!! - so make sure you're NOT transmitting all that effort to the carb throttle shaft. It needs to get JUST BARELY PAST wide open.. just a small limited 'excess amount' to make sure it STAYS wide open when your foot is down on it. I like about 1/16" 'bounce' against the pedal stop.

If the bottom end of the engine is worked on, the clutch will have to be removed ... THAT is the time to have the clutch inspected (always remind your builder to check that for you .. and replace if needed). No need to do it more often than that unless you have some indication that it needs attention (difficulty shifting [that is NOT related to linkage], or obvious SLIPPING in gear on track (although that's ALMOST ALWAYS due to OIL on the clutch.. from somewhere).. generally, it will first show up going into 4th gear .. OR you see signs of 'clutch disc debris' when you pull the engine.

ENJOY YOUR NEW CAR !! :D:D

Steve, FV80

Good thoughts.... Thanks