http://www.f4uschampionship.com/arti...s-championship
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... and as fast as that, PWC fills that gap with the Touring Cars
By canceling the MidOhio date on short notice. Yet to hear any competitor involved in that change happy about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
Mid Ohio?Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
Yes. The PWC guys get a few weeks notice that they are not running at MO and are now at Lime Rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Now I understand, that sounds like a mess to rearrange schedules.Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
And find hotels at Lime Rock last minute, and change the airline tickets that are likely no change, non-refundable, and cancel hotels on the MO weekend that aren't like refundable, and screw over some of the guys that had strong Ohio area connections for their sponsorship. They did say that any team that can't make the Lime Rock race can get double points at Laguna Seca. But if you do make the Lime Rock race, you don't get double points..... Clown shoes I tell ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
The article is written in a some unclear fashion (intentionally?)...
Do they have more drivers than cars ready or do they not have the minimum 12 car field?
Are there cars ordered but not yet delivered?
I am not saying i can see the future but....
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...29&postcount=6
Could you pick some lottery numbers for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by RSS
Curious where this is specified as a requirement? (not saying you are wrong, just can't find it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartrax
thx
FIA mandate to be considered a F4 points race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
INDIANAPOLIS – SCCA Pro Racing announced its debut weekend of the Formula 4 United States Championship has been postponed due to delays in manufacturing of a sufficient number of cars to meet the team demand.
The first race weekend, scheduled for May 27-28 at Lime Rock Park in Lakeville, Connecticut, will be rescheduled at a track and date to be determined to maintain a five-event championship series. The F4 U.S. Championship will now make its debut June 10-12 at New Jersey Motorsports Park in Millville, New Jersey.
so in 2 more weeks they can build all the cars needed?
Do you know how long it takes to remove those formula lite stickers from the chassis using elbow grease alone? But don't worry somebody dropped off a bottle of goo gone the other day so they should be able to bang out the next 12 cars in 2 weeks no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Pitt
It is easy to criticize. There seem to be some good people doing their best to get as many cars out to as many teams as they can to get the Series on the track. The problem, as many of us experience in our own lives, is that upper management picked a course and timeline that was impossible, and the people taking the heat now are just doing the best they can to complete an impossible task.
The scariest part of this is that the same upper management that chose the course and timeline, is still running the day to day operation of SCCA. Whether F4 survives, dies, or thrives, will affect a very small part of the Apexspeed community, but poor management threatens the future of Club racing as a whole.
I wonder how close the F4 series will parallel the 2000 to 2001 F3 VW series.
That's just cold............
Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I think that is most people's problem with this. Ultimately, our member dollars are supporting this. Yes, I know they have Pirelli and Honda money, but if/when they bail we will all be on the hook.
They picked good people to work on this, but good people can't do the impossible.
Everyone saw this coming.
What is the status of formula lites? Is it still a series? There is not even a schedule on their website anymore (at least not that I can find) and they are supposed to have a race this weekend. Is it happening? They are comically bad at social media.
F4 has a real chance of success. I don't believe that FL has any chance, so it might make the most sense to push those FL cars down to F4 if the F4/FL cars are a common tub.
I heard FL was cancelled. Not much way to make it work with lack of carsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wren
There are lots of F4 cars purchased so more then enough to have a decent grid, production delays are the issue in getting cars out. Crawford is building the cars however there are other sources for parts so as we all know trying to get everything to fall into place doesn't always go as planned.
I know there are many people from the start who were/are hoping for this to fail however having another failing open wheel class doesn't help any of us. There is a lot of manufacturer money beyond F4 in the US. In other areas of the world, so far, the series has done well. Italy and Germany were having 40 car plus grids with qualifying races just to be able to compete in the weekend final race due to grid size.
Greg above listed some of the issues and what people should be focussing on more so then dooming in F4 before it starts.
I'm surmising only from published statements earlier, but the recently failed-then-passed crash test on the F4 tub suggests it's not the same as the Lites tub, as I believe the Lites tub was already FIA approved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
Also, I'm pretty sure there isn't a stockpile of unsold Lites cars to convert anyway.
i am totally shocked and surprised by this unforeseeable development
Hey Josh,Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Pitt
You planning on racing ? It would be good to see you back out again.....been a while
Alternately, its success doesn't help either. All it does is further dilute the pool of racers. It is a zero sum game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Either way, whether I want F4 to succeed or not will make no difference.
The reality is that the SCCA now has a real, vested interest in supporting its own series over the series that are the SCCA's customers and the series where the SCCA's member participate. It seems pretty clear already that they are ok with treating people poorly to further the SCCA's ends(i.e. forcing touring cars to move on short notice).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
Good point. It also raises an interesting point about whether or not the FL chassis was ever FIA approved. If anyone else wanted to participate in the SCCA with a composite chassis, they would have to go through the FIA testing process. Was the SCCA so desperate for their own series that they made a separate set of rules for themselves?
Maris - I agree my previous post was cold. The past is not always useful in predicting the future, but it often helps.
It occurred to me over the weekend that if F4 fails, all the carbon tub flat bottom (no tunnel) formula cars could be put in one class.
While the subject of the necessity of another Formula car class could fill a fairly long thread I'll make one point - the FIA and ACCUS wanted it to happen in the USA and if it hadn't been through the SCCA it would have happened anyway with someone else. A new 'made in US' F4 constructor wouldn't have been my choice but thats what they felt was the right way to go - made in the USA.
Once the realization set in that Lime Rock wasn't fair to those registered the track time was offered to Pirelli World Challenge who had a pretty miserable schedule and paddock space at Mid Ohio due to the extra Indy car feeder series. They chose to move their date and were not forced to do anything by SCCA.
Wren, I agree with a lot of your stuff this is way off:
"The reality is that the SCCA now has a real, vested interest in supporting its own series over the series that are the SCCA's customers and the series where the SCCA's member participate. It seems pretty clear already that they are ok with treating people poorly to further the SCCA's ends(i.e. forcing touring cars to move on short notice).
Phil
Yes, SCCA leadership could have left the project to other qualified groups with cars, engines, people in place to do so, retained sanctioning fees, and assumed no financial risks, while putting focus on rebuilding Club racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
That is not meant as a criticism of those trying to get F4 going now, but a criticism of the so-called leadership of SCCA.
Greg
First you have to understand that SCCA Pro is a separate company and has no bearing on the running of Club Racing whatsoever. It has derived its income in recent years as a service provider for a number of entities that were formerly run poorly by Pro (PWC and TransAm) and some outside organisations such as the Bob Wright Series and others particularly if ACCUS is involved (Formula E and Global Rallycross etc). Its also been paying off its debt to the Club at a reasonable rate for the past few years out of its profits (yes it does make money).
Derrick Walker is now CEO and inherited what we currently have going. You know Steve Oseth was hired to run it operationally. Its a pretty lean operation and I know that they are looking at increasing the revenue stream and I believe that was the thinking when Robert Clark inked the deal with Honda and F4.
Its easy to drop comments about SCCA leadership but you need to realise that there are two entities. I'm not sure that the comments " SCCA leadership could have left the project to other qualified groups with cars, engines, people in place to do so, retained sanctioning fees, and assumed no financial risks, while putting focus on rebuilding Club racing." are correct or accurate:-
Qualified groups with cars - There are over 30 orders for the Crawford F4
Engines- I don't see anyone but Honda stepping up to the sponsorship plate. If you are referring to Ford it was a non starter commercially.
Tires - Don't forget the Pirelli tire deal as well
People in place to do so - seems to be teams that want to do it and SCCA has the staff.
Retained sanction fees - these are pretty low compared to running the series with entry fees and sposorship.
The financial risk is being borne by Honda and Crawford with the new car and engine.
The activities of Pro have little bearing on the Club Program which I think is actually pretty decent right now with the Majors, Runoffs at places like Laguna, Daytona and Indy - a lot of people have tried very hard to change the Club Program over the last few years but it takes time.
IF they get it right it should attract new blood but its going to take work to get the buzz going and I don't see it yet. Maybe when the first race is run we will see what we have got.
Meanwhile if you have opinions on improving the Club Program I'm sure that they would be gratefully received - John Walsh the SCCA Chairman is pretty receptive to ideas and is from Rochester NY and visits some of your Pro races up there. Mind you I had strong opinions on the Club direction in the early 90s and it led to 10 years and countless hours on the CRB and 6 more as a Director of SCCA inc and I'm still on the SCCA Pro Board (although they usually tell us stuff after everyone else).
Phil
I am very aware of all the players in this mess. The President of SCCA and her people chose this course and has hired the people to staff SCCA Pro Racing. I wish they would focus on Club Racing which is operated as a 1960s recreational club with a few thousand members, and needs total reform to be a viable 21st century business. Instead we get expanded SCCA Pro racing and all kinds of new programs to build membership. The only people working for Club racers are a hearty group of volunteers like yourself, and you're mostly beating your head against a wall trying to please everybody but pleasing hardly anyone. Thanks for your service but I think you need some help! I could just go away, or bitch to my buddies like most SCCA racers do, but I would really like SCCA to be reformed, or restructured so that it can better serve the different factions of it's membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
Greg, I totally understand your concerns with Club Racing and as a low budget racing member for nearly 50 years I believe that I have some understanding of the issues involved. I am trying to help the Club by volunteering my time for multiple smallish jobs that I hope will help the club racing end of things advance into the future. I work with many other members who are also trying to do the same thing. These people are definitely those that want to see Club Racing improve and spend lots of their personal time working on the issues you raise.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
I suggest that you get more involved in how things are running and make your ideas and positions known beyond ApexSpeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
For those curious about the FIA's structure for F4 these sources might prove informative
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...l_formula4.pdf
and
http://www.fia.com/formula-4-championships
well if the Pope approves....
http://www.racer.com/north-american-...mance-for-2016Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
I think they need a new PR person.
hey starting a PROFESSIONAL(?) series in July sounds....... well, professional
Don't shoot the messenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt King
As mentioned above, this all leads back to decisions made by the upper management of SCCA .... the same people making decisions about our future.
Am I the only one who finds it ironic the group F4 will be running their first event with?
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by EACIII
F4 announced FIA approval of the tub on February 12th...
One assumes also that some basic aspects of the car were designed over the winter and into early manufacturing well before that....
Yet they cant deliver 12 cars in the subsequent 12 weeks ???
What were the plans to accommodate the 30+ cars envisioned?
The press release reads like Crawford being thrown under the bus, but I just can't believe it's that simple.
Wait, you think they will actually make the new, new date?Quote:
Originally Posted by EACIII