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After watching the Formula Continental Runoffs race @ Indy, I wasn't surprised at all- with the level of competition throughout the field...
This event has proven that if the F2000 car owners would attend an FRP event, that they would have an amazing race and weekend.
I agree FRP seems very well run and worthwhile, I was intimidated by “pro” too but visiting an event I saw that was an unfounded fear. Very laid back and comfortable but professionally run.
A lot of us would race somewhere else like frp if across the country scca is all about clases the sell cars too or control the. Lass financially sfr. Fe2. F4 they are sluts for the money so yes frp if across the country is a great option. I would luv to have east coast franchise. Is it available?
Look at where the cars came from and then look at a map for a clue. Geography is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Lee
Kim,Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoe z
Running the FRP style out west would mean charging $2000+ entry fees. Last time I checked Laguna was $14k/day and Sonoma was $18k (plus services). There aren't enough cars to cover costs.
But inquire. It would be great if someone would sponsor it.
FRP is a fantastic place, a racer's paradise. The amount of track time is unbelievable, 3 hours a weekend!
That might work for you but some of have been around for a bit. We have seen the ups and downs and just to discount us or insult the old guys is not going to get you the best result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Lee
Some of us have been trying to help formula cars grow for years when you alienate groups your not helping.....
Yes, FRP is a great promoter and place to race. For many, it's cost and logistically prohibitive. To your question, it's not a matter of "want", it's a matter of what is feasible. Think of the people you are trying to attract - put yourself in their shoes. Mid-life, family, responsibilities. Some cannot take multiple weeks off of work for travel, being away from their family, nor the cost of doing so. SCCA might not be as grand, but it's cheaper and a lesser time commitment. (That's "cheaper", not "better value".) When you have to foot your own bill and are responsible for all the logistics, it's a different calculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Lee
I read the original post pre-edit, and saw it as honest words from a kid with enough balls to be candid about the sport we all love.
I also didn’t read them as judging anyone in particular, but rather pointing out the occasional stodginess that time and again has and will turn competitors away.
Since Jonathan is one of the next wave that will make or break SCCA — and just how often do we hear from the next wave? — I might suggest his words of passion should be considered beyond the presentation details.
Well, congratulating drivers on a successful SCCA event, and then basically berating participation the SCCA while promoting another series, and then cutting and pasting the same post in FF (or vv) just leaves a bad taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
If it was a simple "congrats on the numbers, etc., we'd like to invite you to give FRP (which counts toward runoff quali) a try at least once next year." But no. I wasn't.
But if Mr. Lee is young he probably has no perspective on how racing fits into life for most of the people he's talking to.
I'm not sure I'd call it candid. Just not well thought out.
Personally I think Jonathan was simply pointing out his personal ideas of what would grow the numbers in FF and FC. Nothing more.
If anyone wants to take shots at it, well shame on them.
I see his points as valid, but the FRP series, while undoubtedly a better bang for the buck than SCCA club racing, for me the number of bucks to do the travel necessary is simply more than I have to spend.
So I continue to run SCCA club races and have as much fun as I can. I would love to be able to do the FRP series, but that aint gonna happen.
Remember we all want the same things, Formula car numbers to grow. The debate has forever been on how to make that happen.
Time and place incorrect. And it's been debated before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
So, they didn't have an amazing weekend? Because it wasn't FRP? What does one have to do with the other?Quote:
This event has proven that if the F2000 car owners would just show up to an FRP event, that they would have an amazing race and weekend.
My problem with the endless bashing of SCCA pro FRP is out west we simply don't have access. We commonly field 12-15 cars and if everyone goes to FRP our class becomes defunct. Midwest-East has a choice, but as happened 2 years ago with F1000, everyone went to a 3rd party series and simply killed the class in SCCA for the rest of the country.
You want numbers to grow in FRP? Grow SCCA. Don't pi$$ on it. Everyone needs club racers to keep showing up.
Otherwise F2000 will become a dodo like F1000.
hmmmm. Read, Beerbudget and I have ruminated on this...
Regardless of the sanction issues:
FC. NEEDS. NEW. CARS.
Otherwise, its just 98-08 VD (how many left?) and a dozen odd Mygale, Citation, RFR, and Radons. Oh yeah, and that Pinto/Zetec thing.....
I think that while new cars are desirable, the cost is way out of line with what most F2000 customers can afford. At today's costs, the engine and transmission assembly alone will eat up over $30,000. A new car with data logging system, setup as many cars are raced, will eat up most of a $100,000 bill. Given that medium income is around $70,000 and the tax cut is close to half that, new FC's are not going to be very common.
2 things I think can work for the class are the fact that the Pinto engine can be competitive, if not have an edge on the Zetec, and that it is possible to recycle old F2000s into new cars. The parts that can be salvaged from an existing car can reduce the cost of a new car by half or more. It is cheaper to buy a used car for the components that can be reused that it is to buy those same components new.
The issue here is that to really save money, the guy who is doing the car needs to put his sweat equity into the project and not try to have the work done in a pro shop.
The same thing is true for F1600 and the Kent engine.
I believe that Jon's message was that we need to participate!
The masses are not going to buy $100K new race cars to support our current FF/F1600 and FC/F2000. Forget about new cars and let's keep as many of the current cars active and competitive as we can. As Steve says, sweat equity has to be part of that equation.
FRP, certainly at the current time, is well organized club racing with good race groups and good quantity of track time. People, in other parts of the country, can organize that same coordinated racer group model anywhere, within SCCA or other organizers.
Formula cars, and club racing in general, has a limited lifespan, as we know it. Our best course is not to have a 20 year plan, but have a 5 year plan. That starts with a 1 year plan. Support SCCA or FRP or your local group by working on your race car today and having it on track for 2022!
Your excluding me.Quote:
Originally Posted by S Lathrop
I spent most of my time running independents and there were many of them on LI. That market is gone.
In the 70's I had an argument with the owner of the biggest prep shop on LI at the time, He said all prep work should go though my shop. I said the more race shops you have the bigger the party you will have and more business.
After watching FX for the first time at the Runoffs, I asked myself what this class was intended to do... beyond have a place for Star Mazdas (despite their obvious rules disadvantages, as clearly seen in the results).
Was this class intended as a new place for F2000s after some relatively-lean turnouts at the Runoffs in recent years?
The turnout in FC this year was epic, and as seen on ApexSpeed, very well-earned! Am I connecting the dots that some of you promoting FC so hard this year was to save the class from forced entry into FX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi_guy
In the 50 years I have been involved with FV, FF, and the classes that followed, I have turned out a bit over 250 cars, I have assembled very few complete cars. Most of the cars I have assembled were the very first cars of each design. After that is was parts for other guys to build cars. I almost never had a prep shop as a customer. My business model was much more like the FV model than what was typical of other formula car classes. The majority of my customers just could not afford to buy a new car, ready to race. Instead they might buy a used car and over time upgrade that package to something was top of the line.
IIRC, FX was created as a catch all for classes that were in decline and in danger of losing Runoffs eligibility, classes that had limited numbers and were being requested recognition (F2000) and establish an opportunity to build numbers for possible future recognition or at least have a place in the Runoffs program. It was not aimed specifically at FC.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
Those are the Mazda-powered ex-"US F2000's" which are not legal in FC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Quote:
Originally Posted by S Lathrop
One of your fairly recently very successful cars was run by a prep shop.
My thoughts are if your just focusing on one segment like the cost conservative group you not going to grow the numbers of participation in formula car racing.
Willing to bet if you had kept a roller in stock you would have sold a few that way.
But as I have said I have no solution, and I doubt the answer is to narrow your base.
Purple Frog, LaRue, Rice, Averill are all guys that make lots of good, positive, and encouraging posts for the class that attracted me. I think they and those like them deserve some credit for helping runoffs numbers and can be a model for keeping numbers going. Regardless of prep shop, new, used, etc.
Allow sequential gear box and maybe turbo on zetec or what I would do eco boost crate engine appeal to young kids we could do it. 20 k and class can live we are like 2 Nd gen Rx7 will race a long time but in deceasing numbers I do all my own work engine s body work this is a cheap class to race and great people it would make a great car kids would want to race but again scca would probably block but you are all great to race with let’s keep racing
Fe2 trans and 10/8 wheels below 20k great car
if the class has become too expensive for what the market will bear, then it needs a change to the formula to survive. Otherwise, its just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
Both club racing and FRP are beneficial to the formula classes.
If you want to keep your class alive and well run as many races as you can.
If that means staying close to home, run both club and FRP events that are within travel distance.
You don't have travel long distance if you're not competing for championships.
Jerry Hodges.
JDR race cars.
North American formula 1000 championship.
PS: f1000 is alive and growing in FRP
I love this analogy, I also love, that in this case, it is the best strategy! Let's see if we can keep the old boat afloat for another 5-10 years. It is too late for us to avoid the iceberg. or build a new boat. But we have enough deck chairs to keep us going, especially if we bring out those that were not allowed on deck previously. And when the boat does go down, deck chairs do float, and can be moved to another boat. What we don't need, is better, newer, more expensive deck chairs. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
Now is the time to work on your deck chair and make sure you can use it next season!
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100114&stc=1
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/ima...UPDnPS57Z//9k=
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/ima...UPDnPS57Z//9k=
Still one event to go !Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
well it is the vintage strategy. you all just refuse to accept or recognize it.
Some of the negativity on this post is pretty disappointing.
Maybe the message wasn't delivered as one would've liked from Jonathan. However, knowing him I can tell you his intention with this post isn't to offend of piss off anyone. It was to encourage participation. Be it SCCA or FRP. He wants you driving your cars. We all want that or else we wouldn't still have cars collecting dust in our garages. (I'm guilty of a dusty racecar I can't drive right now, not trying to throw shade anyone's way)
Not being able to race FRP because of logistics is the number one reason most people don't race FRP. I'm in that boat as I live in Texas, I'm a full time nursing student and Mom. Does that mean I want to jump on him for his post because it doesn't fit my current lifestyle? No. It means I am glad someone else wants me out driving my car whether its in FRP or not. Moral of the message.. Drive your racecar and have fun with it. There's enough to complain about inside and outside of racing.
We wonder why younger people struggle to get into our sport and continue to grow it. Granted not everyone can afford to get into open wheel racing, but that's another post for another time. But the general attitude of jump on the young guy suggesting participation doesn't make me want to run out and tell the other 20-30 something's that I know 'go buy a FF or FC and go racing with me'.
Jump on me if you must. This is my quarterly login to ApexSpeed as I have critical care of adults and labor and delivery finals coming up.
Meg Sauce
SowDiv FF10
Swift DB6 Honda
A good engineer focus on both the positive and negative aspects of a problem. Pretending that the problem does not exist or covering the ears and eyes and not seeing both sides leads to a big pile of crap.
Many moons ago when there was not so much competition you could live in your own bubble now it is not going to help.