A learning experience - DP08 and left-foot braking

Since my Citation is still going through an extensive upgrade, it is not yet ready for the 2019 season. So I am renting Steve Jenks' spare car (Tumenas Motorsports) for at least Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen.

This has, to say the least, been a difficult transition from my Citation (Staffs H-pattern box, using the clutch for every shift, 99% right-foot braking) to the DP08 (sequential shift, left-foot braking - pedal locations not conducive to right foot braking) with a very narrow foot-box, totally different feel to the handling (much heavier steering, little feedback until you're right at the limit, etc).

The biggest issue is getting my left foot (51+ years of using the clutch on every shift) to not twitch onto the brake during shifts. Until I got close to mastering that, any attempt to drive the car hard was futile, since I couldn't trust my left foot to not screw up, at the least or put me off the track at worst.

Weather conditions did not help this transition. Rain shortened my test with the team at Roebling (which I had not driven since 1984) to one day while we were also modifying stuff so I would fit properly. At the end of the test, I could still not trust my left foot to do what was needed.

So we went to Road Atlanta. There were 2 Thursday practice sessions, in which I was still fighting my insubordinate left foot. So that was frustrating and I was not learning much about the car.

Friday was mostly a washout, and qualifying started on a damp track. We went out on rains (turned out to be a mistake, and the car lost power during the 1st lap due to a fuel-line dry-break fitting separating. So after getting towed in, the team fixed that, and I went out for another lap on the rains, and immediately pitted to put on the dries. By then the qualifying was more than half over, and my tires were cold, while everyone else was hammering around on warmed up dries. So since I was still not trusting my left foot, the tires were cold, etc., I was watching my mirrors trying to not ruin others' qualifying laps more than driving. I only got in a few laps, the session was over and I really hadn't yet driven the car hard on the fresh tires.

The 1st race was postponed to Saturday AM, and the track was still very damp after rain all night. I was trying to feel the grip level on cold slicks during the pace lap and got just a little sideways. I thought I would easily catch the slide, but the DP08 has VERY little steering lock, so I spun and stalled in turn 6 (still on the track facing backwards). I got it going after all the things that have to be done with the sequential to get neutral, and tried to turn it around. Because of the lack of steering lock I could not do it in one motion and stay on the track, but I was afraid that if I screwed around trying to back up (again a complicated procedure) I'd be blocking the track when the field came around, so I decided to go slightly onto the grass on the inside of the corner to complete the turn. BAD DECISION! The wet grass sucked me down the slope almost to the wall and I high-centered. So that was the end of that race for me.

Race 2 Saturday afternoon was better - it was dry, and with my left foot finally cooperating, I finally started to get a feel for the car. I think if I'd had a few more dry sessions, I might have been competitive. I know there is at least 2 seconds left just in my driving.

So, despite a VERY frustrating 2 weeks of trying to learn this car and make my left foot obey, there is hope that for WG I'll be in the mix!

When I got my first FF, I decided I was going to left foot brake and it was as you described - no feel, foot wanted to hit the clutch, etc. All my street cars had been manual and I had never used the left foot for anything but the clutch (and doing half the work when I walked).

I lucked out and got a job with a fleet of cars, almost all of which were autos. I figured the only way I'd get good at using the left foot for braking was to do it constantly in the auto street cars. It worked although it took a while to get used to (lot's of freeway driving back then). Now I prefer to drive autos because it keeps my left foot sensitive to the pedal. I don't know if that'll help but it worked for me. Maybe a rental car or left foot braking in the tow vehicle?

Thanks for posting Dave! Always interesting to hear experiences.

If you have any karts available, they are good to practice with as well. Started racing karts as a kid (about 50 years ago, yikes) and learned early how to left foot brake. But, now, it's difficult to heel-and-toe.

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Originally Posted by Garey Guzman

When I got my first FF, I decided I was going to left foot brake and it was as you described - no feel, foot wanted to hit the clutch, etc. All my street cars had been manual and I had never used the left foot for anything but the clutch (and doing half the work when I walked).

I lucked out and got a job with a fleet of cars, almost all of which were autos. I figured the only way I'd get good at using the left foot for braking was to do it constantly in the auto street cars. It worked although it took a while to get used to (lot's of freeway driving back then). Now I prefer to drive autos because it keeps my left foot sensitive to the pedal. I don't know if that'll help but it worked for me. Maybe a rental car or left foot braking in the tow vehicle?

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Actually, I had little trouble with the left foot for actually braking - my issue was that it wanted to push the brake pedal (it still thought it was on the clutch) every time I shifted. It seems to have similar braking feel to my right foot.

I "think" I'm over the hump making it obey now, so hopefully it remembers what to do until WG.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Actually, I had little trouble with the left foot for actually braking - my issue was that it wanted to push the brake pedal (it still thought it was on the clutch) every time I shifted. It seems to have similar braking feel to my right foot.

I "think" I'm over the hump making it obey now, so hopefully it remembers what to do until WG.

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Obviously, your skill set is vastly better and more refined than mine, hope I didn't sound otherwise. I still have to practice! And now with a lower steering rack than I'm used to on my Vintage FF, my left foot has to work at a 45° angle! That was a new sore muscle after Road Atlanta last month!

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Originally Posted by Garey Guzman

Obviously, your skill set is vastly better and more refined than mine, hope I didn't sound otherwise. I still have to practice! And now with a lower steering rack than I'm used to on my Vintage FF, my left foot has to work at a 45° angle! That was a new sore muscle after Road Atlanta last month!

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I didn't say I am now an expert on left-foot braking - I'm just getting to the barely competent level... I'm sure if I did it for a much longer period, I'd do it much better. Also if I were 40 years younger, it'd be easier to learn.

Start left foot braking in your street car. That's how I learned to right foot brake.

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Originally Posted by Chris Livengood

Start left foot braking in your street car. That's how I learned to right foot brake.

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I've been doing that. But the environment in the racecar is so different that carrying that over to the racecar has been difficult. I think I am almost there, but my performance at WG will tell.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I've been doing that. But the environment in the racecar is so different that carrying that over to the racecar has been difficult. I think I am almost there, but my performance at WG will tell.

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this is what autocross events are for... :)

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Originally Posted by chrisw52

this is what autocross events are for... :)

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Would you believe I've never done an autocross? :D

Too easy to get lost in the sea of cones. Much easier for me to follow (usually) the gray stuff between the grass.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Since my Citation is still going through an extensive upgrade, it is not yet ready for the 2019 season. So I am renting Steve Jenks' spare car (Tumenas Motorsports) for at least Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen.

This has, to say the least, been a difficult transition from my Citation (Staffs H-pattern box, using the clutch for every shift, 99% right-foot braking) to the DP08 (sequential shift, left-foot braking - pedal locations not conducive to right foot braking) with a very narrow foot-box, totally different feel to the handling (much heavier steering, little feedback until you're right at the limit, etc).

The biggest issue is getting my left foot (51+ years of using the clutch on every shift) to not twitch onto the brake during shifts. Until I got close to mastering that, any attempt to drive the car hard was futile, since I couldn't trust my left foot to not screw up, at the least or put me off the track at worst.

Weather conditions did not help this transition. Rain shortened my test with the team at Roebling (which I had not driven since 1984) to one day while we were also modifying stuff so I would fit properly. At the end of the test, I could still not trust my left foot to do what was needed.

So we went to Road Atlanta. There were 2 Thursday practice sessions, in which I was still fighting my insubordinate left foot. So that was frustrating and I was not learning much about the car.

Friday was mostly a washout, and qualifying started on a damp track. We went out on rains (turned out to be a mistake, and the car lost power during the 1st lap due to a fuel-line dry-break fitting separating. So after getting towed in, the team fixed that, and I went out for another lap on the rains, and immediately pitted to put on the dries. By then the qualifying was more than half over, and my tires were cold, while everyone else was hammering around on warmed up dries. So since I was still not trusting my left foot, the tires were cold, etc., I was watching my mirrors trying to not ruin others' qualifying laps more than driving. I only got in a few laps, the session was over and I really hadn't yet driven the car hard on the fresh tires.

The 1st race was postponed to Saturday AM, and the track was still very damp after rain all night. I was trying to feel the grip level on cold slicks during the pace lap and got just a little sideways. I thought I would easily catch the slide, but the DP08 has VERY little steering lock, so I spun and stalled in turn 6 (still on the track facing backwards). I got it going after all the things that have to be done with the sequential to get neutral, and tried to turn it around. Because of the lack of steering lock I could not do it in one motion and stay on the track, but I was afraid that if I screwed around trying to back up (again a complicated procedure) I'd be blocking the track when the field came around, so I decided to go slightly onto the grass on the inside of the corner to complete the turn. BAD DECISION! The wet grass sucked me down the slope almost to the wall and I high-centered. So that was the end of that race for me.

Race 2 Saturday afternoon was better - it was dry, and with my left foot finally cooperating, I finally started to get a feel for the car. I think if I'd had a few more dry sessions, I might have been competitive. I know there is at least 2 seconds left just in my driving.

So, despite a VERY frustrating 2 weeks of trying to learn this car and make my left foot obey, there is hope that for WG I'll be in the mix!

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Great perspective Dave

Get some time in a shifter kart. Very quickly you will unlearn the muscle memory of using your "clutch" foot. Race cars are slow motion in comparison to "shifters".

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Originally Posted by DaveW

...and with my left foot finally cooperating, I finally started to get a feel for the car....

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Originally Posted by ExKartracer

Get some time in a shifter kart. Very quickly you will unlearn the muscle memory of using your "clutch" foot. Race cars are slow motion in comparison to "shifters".

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As I said above, I think I'm over the hump - we shall see at WG.

I too, learned to left foot brake at Atlanta. That was 3 or 4 years into my f2k "career" when I was still with Glenn. We went down to do a test at an scca weekend, and we lost the clutch. Since the pedal was dead stick (at that point I was still burping the clutch on ever shift) my left foot was useless, and was even useless as a timing marker because they pedal was on the floor so I couldnt even simulate the heel/toe, clutch movements I was usually doing.

So I figured screw it and started left foot braking. By the end of the first session I was never going back. Not because it's faster or better or anything, but simply because it just simplified EVERYTHING about driving the car. I've never touched the clutch after roll off since that day.

The only downside is in a spin you have to decide to either come off the brake to switch feet or stall the car, and as everyone knows when you're do that hot in these, you can never really be sure they'll fire up again. Then comes there contortition act as you try and reach to cycle the master on the side of the car :|

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Originally Posted by SMRacing

I too, learned to left foot brake at Atlanta. That was 3 or 4 years into my f2k "career" when I was still with Glenn. We went down to do a test at an scca weekend, and we lost the clutch. Since the pedal was dead stick (at that point I was still burping the clutch on ever shift) my left foot was useless, and was even useless as a timing marker because they pedal was on the floor so I couldnt even simulate the heel/toe, clutch movements I was usually doing.

So I figured screw it and started left foot braking. By the end of the first session I was never going back. Not because it's faster or better or anything, but simply because it just simplified EVERYTHING about driving the car. I've never touched the clutch after roll off since that day.

The only downside is in a spin you have to decide to either come off the brake to switch feet or stall the car, and as everyone knows when you're do that hot in these, you can never really be sure they'll fire up again. Then comes there contortition act as you try and reach to cycle the master on the side of the car :|

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One of the issues I had was braking going into the pits, or any other time I stopped. One has to either have 3 feet (it's too tight in the foot box to move the right foot to the brake while clutching with the left) or remember to pull the cable with the left hand to enable getting into neutral with the right hand which means no hands on the steering wheel.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

One of the issues I had was braking going into the pits, or any other time I stopped. One has to either have 3 feet (it's too tight in the foot box to move the right foot to the brake while clutching with the left) or remember to pull the cable with the left hand to enable getting into neutral with the right hand which means no hands on the steering wheel.

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With the shifting system utilized is it possible to select neutral while still moving 10-15mph forward? Just do that well before you need to use that left foot to come to a stop.

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

With the shifting system utilized is it possible to select neutral while still moving 10-15mph forward? Just do that well before you need to use that left foot to come to a stop.

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That's what I wound up doing. The issue with that is you have to slow down well before the pit location to make sure it's actually in neutral while pulling the cable with the left hand and the right hand on the shift lever or you'll stall the car. And if you think maybe you haven't gotten neutral and try it a 2nd time, you get reverse (one push forward from 1st is neutral, the 2nd is reverse) which is certainly not a good thing while you're still moving forward.

Since there is absolutely no way to look at anything and know what gear you're in, I think it's more complicated than it should be.

The H-pattern 4-speed is MUCH simpler, since the shift lever position indicates the gear it's in and you can feel neutral.

This situation is why I didn't try backing up on the track when I spun on the pace lap for race 1 - I didn't want to screw up and stall again on the track with the field coming around.

No reverse lock out?

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Jamesbe

No reverse lock out?

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

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If you're pulling the cable to enable neutral, I don't think there is. Pulling the cable enables 1st gear initially, and then reverse if you push the shifter forward a 2nd time.

I haven't gotten reverse by accident while I was moving forward, but it seems to me you could, which could break the trans if the clutch were still engaged.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Since there is absolutely no way to look at anything and know what gear you're in, I think it's more complicated than it should be..

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Sounds like it needs a big green "N" on the dash ;)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Sounds like it needs a big green "N" on the dash ;)

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:D

Having a gear number (letter) on the dash takes away all the fun. Having the neutral lock out non functional (on my car) makes it even more exciting. I've learned to count gears but sometimes miss and end up in neutral going into a tight corner. I can't figure out why the neutral lockout only works occasionally, but the reverse always does (thank god!).

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Having a gear number (letter) on the dash takes away all the fun. Having the neutral lock out non functional (on my car) makes it even more exciting. I've learned to count gears but sometimes miss and end up in neutral going into a tight corner. I can't figure out why the neutral lockout only works occasionally, but the reverse always does (thank god!).

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If it’s a Hewland box, there’s 2 jumps on the lockout drum. You need to pull a bit for neutral, and a bit more for reverse. Likely your cable is too tight if it’s not locking neutral

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Originally Posted by petawawarace

If it’s a Hewland box, there’s 2 jumps on the lockout drum. You need to pull a bit for neutral, and a bit more for reverse. Likely your cable is too tight if it’s not locking neutral

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Maybe I'm pulling the cable too hard - no one told me that there were 2 steps to its function. I was told pull it to be able to get neutral, and do the same again from neutral to get reverse, each time pushing forward on the shift lever.

If what you say is right, that makes it more fool-proof.

Well, that makes sense, but it doesn’t seem too tight. I will pursue it.

Post about reverse lockout:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...l=1#post528041
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Question: There's a T-handle on the dash that says "reverse". Is this a reverse lockout?

Answer: Yes, Pull the T-handle and push the shift lever forward to get into Neutral and forward again for Reverse
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So that seems to indicate what I thought - it would be possible to get into reverse by accident if you pushed the shift lever twice instead of once.

To make a long story short, after more struggles with my feet and the "heel-rest", we first tried removing it entirely because my feet were slipping over it and getting caught. That didn't work at all - I had issues with my right foot not coming off the gas pedal during braking, etc., which screwed up race 1 Saturday. I could either concentrate on driving, or concentrate on my feet. I couldn't do both properly at the same time. So I made some more modifications to the heel rest Saturday afternoon - I made it taller and rounded to the front so that my feet could not slip over it. So, for Sunday it worked perfectly, and my feet were no longer an issue.

Sunday qualifying was in a downpour with standing water and aquaplaning a big issue. So with few cars in the race, and a black-flag-all after 1 flying lap, I decided to park it and wait for the race. At race start, it was still heavy rain with conditions like they were in qualifying, plus I couldn't see anything in the spray. So in order to not test my luck with the limited steering lock on the DP08, I started very cautiously. As the race went on, the rain let up a bit, the severe aquaplaning spots diminished, and it actually started to be fun.

So the DP08 experiment was a limited success, and I got to do 2 race weekends I wouldn't have done if I'd waited until my Citation was ready. If all goes well, I'll have it for Mid-Ohio. The frame is almost done, bodywork is mostly fitted, and I'm taking the rest of the car to Citation this or early next week. We will then start bolting everything together. As soon as we get it to a state that I can trailer it, I will bring it home and complete the assembly.