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What do the rules of SVRA and other vintage sanctioning bodies say about the future eligibility of "current" FF cars? Are the vintage rules based solely on age of the chassis? Or is it in the discretion of the organizers?
For example, will the DB-1 and other all-inboard cars be eligible for vintage racing anytime in the near future? Some are approaching 25 years old, and I am just wondering what the future has in store for my Swift.
Thanks
Tom
Most of the clubs that I race with-RMVR,CVAR, VARA,SVRA,VSCDA,CSRG have set the cutoff at 1972- that would be last year of manufacture that is Vintage eligible. Some organizations -VARA and HSR West allow newer FF's to compete as "Club Fords".
Thanks Denny. I didnt realize that the cut-off was so far back, 1972! I assumed it was more recent, maybe 1980 or so, and also assumed it would be some type of rolling cut-off with more cars being added to the eligible list every year.
Anything magical about the 1972 cut-off date? Why is that the cut-off?
Thanks
Tom
Most pre 1972 chassis were in fact recycled 1960's technology with outboard shocks and brakes.
In the early seventies, Chassis became more sophisticated, brakes moved inboard, rads moved into side pods and, theoretically, bodies became more aerodynamic.
So the 1972 cut off represents that shift.
The Ontario Formula Ford Challenge allows cars 72 and older to compete in "C" class, 84 and older to compete in the "B" class.
The B class allows cars that have inboard suspension at both ends, unlike most/all other Club Ford groups that require the cars be outboard at one end, minimum.
However even the OFFC specifically excludes the DB1.
So it seems that the DB1 is just too good for Club Ford unless a new sub class is created.
Tony
VARA also allows modern fords to run as "Mod Ford". Sam Simpson ran his Swift DB-1, and there's a Crossle and a Citation Centurion that run in that group. When Sam ran with us he had to run with the Big Fast Formula group, but recently, the other two have run in the FF/CF group. I don't believe Mod Ford is restricted to the American Racer tires.
SuperVee has the same philosophy with SV1 (wingless 1700 A/C), SV2 (flatbottom 2L A/C and 1600 W/C) and SV3 (Ground effect up to 1800 injected).
In FC we have FC1 (rocker cars) and FC2 (pushrod through '97). I could see the more modern cars in FC3 at some time in the future if the pacific series were to go away and SoCal SCCA FC counts continue to decline.
In accepting the modern cars an argument of the pre-'72 owners is that it will drive down the values of their cars, but frankly, a nicely prepared VFF is $18K and up, and although a beater CFF will go for half that, the peer pressure to fix the car up will get it up in the VFF range pretty quickly.
Since there are specific classes for each era the pressure to be 1st overall is greatly reduced.
Tom:
You can pretty well forget about expecting the vintage organizations to change their stance on what is allowed as a vintage formula ford. An organization called Monoposto Racing formed these rules some years ago. Many members of the various organizations - like SVRA, and others - as well as the Monoposto members have much invested in these cars and in the stability of these rules. As someone already noted, vintage ff's command anywhere from $15k for a beater to $25K and higher for a really nice one. Yes, you can buy a decent Club FF for a lot less. You can also race a CFF in these organizations. Monoposto went to a fair amount of trouble to create a Club Ford class only to see participation turn out to be really low. Because of this, a number of people had their reputations somewhat burned and will never support any changes to the cars allowed in VFF. Count on it.
You can race a CFF on slicks in SVRA and some others. You can race a CFF on treaded Dunlops in VDCA. VARA in CA has much more inviting and enticing rules. You are in NY, so I assume you are stuck with the various East Coast bodies like - SVRA, VRG, HSR, VDCA, VSCCA, etc.
I'm not terribly current on any recent proposals, but I doubt seriously that the rules for vintage FF's will change anytime in the foreseeable future. The fields are still pretty decent a the better events, so they see no advantage in change. I do my Club FF racing in SCCA. I do my vintage racing with an FV - and it wasn't cheap either.
JG
It works for the southern end of the west coast because open wheel participation in SCCA is just dismal.
Rick,
Sam ran his DB1 with VARA one time at Cal Speedway and that was quite a while ago. I'm thinking '02. Then he sold his car to a fast guy up north (WA, I think).
Within a year of Sam's VARA apperance, another DB1 owner and myself tried to enter our cars at a VARA event @ Cal Speedway but after a lot of running around, we were finally told that Swifts were no longer allowed to run with VARA.
It is curious about these vintage groups. In their tin-top classes many times a car can enter as long as it doesn't fit in a current pro series. So one may see cars less than 5 years old. Recent Trans-Am cars, recent Winston Cup cars, etc. In "Boss" it can probably be last year's F1 car if you can afford it.
Yet in small formula cars there has not been an awakening. It can be argued that a DB-1 is no longer nationally competitive in SCCA, yet it can't run vintage, or even CF in SCCA. Sort of a catch 22. Same holds true for old FC cars almost any 96 and earlier (except for one Citation) is not going to win the Runoffs nor the June Sprints.
I'm thinking these vintage groups are afraid of possible overwhelming success. If they open it up, their fields may get too large. :skull:
It was '02. My second race in the VD, and Sam was next to me on the grid. I thought he came out a couple more times though. Will be interesting to see what this new FF "series" will do to our grids.
My observation is that it is difficult to value vintage FF at present. Vintage FF grids (pre 72) have dropped in numbers this season and the market appears to have gone soft.
Creating a class that would span, say 1984 to 1996 (including the DB1) has real merit. However stretching the Club Ford dates to include these cars would make too many earlier cars uncompetetive. That would defeat the purpose.
Tony
Tony,
Stretching the Club Ford eligibility years to allow the DB1 is contrary to the reason Club Ford was formed in the first place. I don't think the 10+ Crossle Club Ford owners in VARA are going to welcome any DB1's into their class. The VARA Club Ford/Vintage Ford fields are quite healthy. Especially relative to SoPac Nationals and Cal Club Regionals.
When I was hunting for a Formula Ford, I considered a DB1/6 because a good example could be had, at that time, cheaper than a good Crossle and would be more competitive. However, within SCCA that same DB1/6 would only become less competitive as time went on, while the Crossle had a class it was competitive in and one didn't need to worry about a new car being allowed in-obsoleting the Crossle. It was a simple decision.
Those who bought DB1's knew, or should have known, when they bought them that they weren't Club Ford or Vintage Ford eligible and had the possibility of becoming less competitive over time--there is a reason they were cheaper/yet faster.
At least one of the Vintage orginizations on the West Coast is considering letting DB-1's etc run in their own Class, with the other CF's and Vintage FF's. Hopefully it will be on the Dunlop or at least a hard compound slick, to keep the speed difference down. The Swifts are, after all , over 20 years old.
HSR is sort of an anomoly. They are all about big and fast, so if it's big and fast it has a vintage home, even if it's only 5 years old.
I've not seen a lot of tube frame GT cars in vintage though. We just recently started accepting the 240-280 Z cars. Historic NASCAR is it's own group and organization that rents time from the vintage group that's running a track they want to be on for that weekend.
VARA got pretty progressive with FC1 and FC2, and our club ford ranks are prety healthy. As I stated earlier, that's due in some part to the open wheel situation out here but frankly, if you compared the VARA "experience" in FF to anywhere in the country, I think VARA would stack up well.
But I agree with you Froggie - most of the vintage groups are missing out in FF, FC, and S2. Take the battle damage away and all of these cars become very inexpensive to run - especially when you consider that you can buy a first class FC outfit, with trailer, for the cost of a 2L vintage Porsche motor. Of course, with the porsche guys it's all about porsches, so that comparison really doesn't matter much.
All vintage groups will leave a little performance on the table as a trade off for less crashing. There's nothing at stake except bragging rights and a 98 cent flag, so there's no reason to take a $2k corner off someone's car in a low-percentage move.
It's a huge concern in the Vintage community that current SCCA drivers will migrate to vintage and there will be considerably more battle damage. There was an article in last month's Victory Lane regarding this.
A lot of the vintage clubs are parade clubs, but of the clubs that really get it on, there's still some concern, because the modern cars not only have more readily available parts, but they provide more protection to boot, so the percieved penalty of crashing is not as high to the driver of a modern car.
If you are not familiar with the vintage scene, it may seem odd to see 20+ yr old cars excluded while an Audi R8 competed in a vintage event this year. As a rule, you will see that the bigger, faster and more expensive the car is, the more likely it is that some "vintage" groups will allow it to participate. FF's are not in that category.
Quickshoe makes a great point about why Club Ford was formed and how the DB1 changed the competitive balance. Most of the vintage owners will not want to see the same result in vintage racing.
I'm a big fan of what the SRRC guys have done for S2 racing in the vintage scene. At Roebling Road last weekend we saw a good grid of S2 cars within an overall vintage focussed event. That can by duplicated by club ford, later ford, etc, should there be a driver/owner group that wants to create a reason for a run group or grid.
A lot of "Vintage" groups - SVRA comes to mind, as does VSSCA - are so successful with their particular focus that they have no need to try to attract more participants. Their grids are already too big, and they can't fit more into a day. But there are two keys to vintage racing - one is the more gentlemanly approach to on-track conduct, and the second is creating a place for people to have fun with that they brung. Keeping the focus on time periods and not letting newer cars creep in and render older cars obsolete for a second time is a big part of letting people have fun with what they have in their garage.
Brian
FF chassis technology can be broken down into 3 or 4 different phases so why can't classes of FF follow the phases. The first phase/class 67-72 early style external shock chassis, 73-82 more areo efficient external shock cars, 83-89ish rocker arm cars. The inboard brake thing was not really advantagious enough or widespread enough to separate into classes. Essentially to be nationally competitive you have to be in a pushrod car (accept Bardwell and Townes). I don't see why rocker cars can't run vintage. That would include Reynards, swift db1&3, Viking, vanDieman and probably a few that I'm leaving out.
SEM
Well said Steve. I thinks we are all trying to make a similar point. Although, judging by Quickshoe's response, I didn't make mine very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Maxwell
I like the term "phase" as it seems to appreciate that the cars evolved and cutoff dates should not be written in stone. Some cars may need to be considered individually.
Also "Vintage" becomes a misnomer as we are not taking about a preservation class. We are actually trying to set up guidelines under which FFords from recognized "phases" can compete with equal cars in significant enough numbers that the results mean something.
In the case of the OFFC, it all happens on the same grid and the total car count is high enough to ensure a FF only start in a series that spans 6-7 weekends (12-14 races) a season.
Tony
Tony, BTW, I will be at a couple of OFFC events in 2007 with a friend. Possibly with the Piper if I like what I see.
SEM
Steve,
The OFFC will welcome you with open arms.
History reminds us that the Swift nearly killed off FF when it was first introduced and IMHO no amount of whining will change racer's bias about running against them. It was a huge leap in technology and is still at the front end of the grid to this day.
Stu,
True enough, the Swift is still really quick in the right hands, but then again so is a well prepped Reynard and Viking. Both outstanding rocker cars. I suppose your point is that if any vintage group started allowing rocker FF's then that would create a Swift "class". That very few Reynard's and other rocker cars would actually show up. That may be true but I'm not an organizer. I wonder how many "other" rocker cars would race besides the Swift?
The Reynards of Gord Lowe and Glyn Walters (OFFC group B) may not have it all their own way next season. Good point about the Viking, that would qualify for group B and could be seriously fast around Mosport. Any Viking owners want to come and play?
The dates for next season are just getting fine tuned. More to follow. For those of you travelling, Mosport offers a practice day prior to most race weekends which would get you 5 half hour open wheel sessions to get comfortable with the track.
Tony
"...Most of the clubs that I race with-RMVR,CVAR, VARA,SVRA,VSCDA,CSRG have set the cutoff at 1972- that would be last year of manufacture that is Vintage eligible. Some organizations -VARA and HSR West allow newer FF's to compete as "Club Fords"...."
Recent rumors from SVRA, are that CF will be allowed to run with VFF cars heading into 2007. This is a huge leap in the vintage community and one that will force Monoposto to revise thier current Rules & Regulation on CF (if that happens I am sure many clubs will follow as these rules are the basis for many clubs). One huge comment is that the CF cars will be required to run on the same tires as the VFF. In 2006, VRG and VDCA (NorthEast) allowed these cars to run as a seperate class with the VFF and we have seen increased car counts (20+) for regular event (not just the festivals).
If you need any information, please do not hesitate to reach out....see you at the races in 2007!
The VARA club fords run on the American Racer sparkthrowers.
VRG (northeast) has accepted Club Fords and run them in the same group with Vintage Fords.
VDCA (southeast) accepts Club Fords defined as 1973-1981 with at least one end having outboard suspension. The Club Fords run in the same group with the Vintage Fords and have a different class designation. All FFs are required to run on the treaded Dunlop 9092 compound specified as the spec tire by Monoposto.
I have not seen any official announcement from SVRA regarding their acceptance of Club Fords in Group 2 with the vintage Fords. I have heard that SVRA is strongly considering it.
Doug Meis
VDCA Technical Director
I wonder how the Dunlop 9092 compares to the Sumitomo tire used in the Phoenix, Arizona based Euro Formula Ford Challenge. I have followed their progress for the past couple of years, and it seems that a hard enough tire takes away the advantages of newer suspension designs, and as a result cars from all different FF 'phases' regularly win there.
In other words, do the Dunlops create equal racing between VF and CF cars, like the Sumitomo does in EFFC?
Our experience in OFFC in Ontario, where we run on the Dunlops, is that the tire is a good performer, but it doesn't make development in the car go away.
At Mosport, a Vintage car will normally do 1:34 - 1:36, a CFF ( our B class) 1:31 - 1:33, and the A class guys in say a '00 Van Diemen will do 1:27 - 1:31.
The tire will be good for three weekends on an A class car, about 6 weekends on a B class car and till you get bored of it on a Vintage car. In the dry, anyway. A newish set is pretty much needed if it's wet.
edit: I should add that these are the sharpish end of the grid, good cars driven by competent drivers who have experience at Mosport. I'm in a B car and I have only done a 1:36, but I WILL be at the tail end of the good guys this season, dammit!
Brian
Thanks Brian...I appreciate the feedback!
Stan
Stan,
If you are looking for some comparison between these two I suggest you contact John Mihalich of RMVR. He was going to run the Sumitomo tires this past season on his Lotus 61. You can reach him through the Lotus Formula Ford Register at: www.lffr.org
He had used Dunlops in the past and was looking for a cheaper alternative.
Rob
This would be a big step for SVRA. In vintage racing, only the podium means anything to the competitors (as opposed to the "paraders"). When the guys with big bucks tied up in their vintage FF's are no longer getting on the podiums, I suspect they will raise holy h#@l. I guess we'll see. Maybe I need a set of Dunlops after all. What are you gonna do, Doug?Quote:
Originally Posted by s800racer
jg
I have my new set of Dunlops on the car. Between VDCA and VRG, I can run enough events to keep me happy. If SVRA allows CFs in Group 2, it's icing on the cake for me. If they don't allow the CFs in, I will be playing with my prod car buddies in Group 1 at SVRA events.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgaither
Doug
Look up SVRA.com - the new eligibility is posted, 1973 onwards with treads (like they raced in the UK). Lets not start another Miata thread. As a regular competitor, the more the merrier. Its probably the right place for older cars rather than trying to put a square peg in a round hole at SCCA. The vintage FF grids in the NE have been smaller this year and I for one would welcome larger grids - in the UK we used to successfully race an earlier and later class so everyone had a chance - similar to the SVRA posting. Most of us are there for the fun, whether we are professionally run or run ourselves. Sure we like a good competitive race, but there is a tendency to leave the other guy enough room. The fastest guys are pretty quick, 2min 9.45 around Watkins Glen Long circuit - Ian Bass 2005 (not bad for 35 year old cars on treads), but do not tend to push each other off. Its not the value of the cars, its the cost of repairs, the wasted journey and the desire to want to drive home in one piece. Frank Williams will not be calling any of us any time soon. And it does not make for good friendships with people we race with year in year out when you develop a reputation as a wild aggressive driver - if thats your bag, better stick to SCCA. So bolt on those treads and come have a relaxed time with folks who want you around, and lots of track time. Thursday test day 4 sessions, Fri/Sat 2 sessions each day, Sun 1 session.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgaither
By the way, its usually the FB's that get the podiums so don't hold your breath for one.
BB2
BB2 wrote: "Look up SVRA.com - the new eligibility is posted, 1973 onwards with treads (like they raced in the UK)."
BB2, I like vintage racing & did a ton of it when I un-retired - in both FV (still doing that) and in S2 (where I won the '04 Edelbrock sprints title for Group 7). Nevertheless, my background in FF is on slicks, so that's where my '80 Zink will stay. I may yet do some vintage FF on Dunlops, but it will be in an older car.
Does this new rule eliminate CF on slicks in SVRA?
jg
Looks like - http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.ns...df?OpenElement is the page. Does not discuss electronic ignition (which is not eligible in pre-72) but by ommission accepts ally wheels. Maybe monoposto will post more detail on their site. Look forward to seeing you in the "older car"Quote:
Originally Posted by jgaither
BB
for showing the link with the revised 07' SVRA guidelines (I only have an original document shared internally). From the our perspective (VRG), FF with slicks will not be allowed to run with the treaded tire group...end of discussion! Although Vintage FF and CF are allowed to run in the same group, they are considered seperate classes and represented by T&S as such; since VRG does not hand out trophies overall T&S results are meaningless.
Monoposto has a F70 group in which the CF were originally allowed to run. I think this is an UNSAFE scenario and they should be moved to the Formula Classic group (with treaded tires). If Monoposto decided to still all slicks on CF in the F70 group then that may help those who are not willing to switch. When it is all said and done...keeping CF on treaded tires is the correct choice (do the math, research, cost analysis, and car counts needed to keep costs down - you will reach the same conclusion). All other Monoposto rules for CF are in thier guide.
I hope this helps...and that we see many of you in 07' on the track. NHIS Vintage Celebration and PVGP Beaver Run will be major FF events...add another 5 CF cars and we are close to 25 cars on the field and growing.
The recollections are generally correct. I ran my DB-1 with VARA in the Big Bore class. Actually did quite well. I ran a number of events over a couple of years and although for at least one event VARA had me signed up to run with the vintage/club ford group, I elected to run only with Big Bore class in the inteest of having a real challenge. DB-1's are just too quick for club fords and vintage fords in most circumstances. I only ran limited SCCA events because, on the West coast fields were thin - even for national races. Just was not any fun. Sold the DB-1 and bought an Atlantic Car. Always went like a rocket until it broke - lots of money, lots of fun, very few finishes. Now I have a Titan Mk 6 so it Vintage FF racing for me.